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Shadow Top Three Answers

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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
10.02.2013 , 01:08 PM | #101
if juggs and vanguards go unchanged i see the following for spike, squish (pre heals) and post self-heal dtps for given pre mitigation snv hm weights damage delivered.

shadow jugg van
spike 0.039 0.04098 0.033456
squish 0.259 0.314 0.27
5000 1296 1446 1353
5500 1426 1603 1488
6000 1555 1760 1623

so we are still a little more spikey than vanguards, but we are now middle of the road, whereas we thought the concept was most spike but least squish. now we are middle spike and least squish. now juggs have most spike (by very small amount, juggs are still 1% better in terms of kinetic damage for unshielded hits, so we might call them even) and take the most damage pre/heals and post heals

KBN, I'm not sure where your 57.55 is coming from, i am using KD armor rating of 3107 for light and 5869 for heavy (pre stance buff, armor_rating) and getting 50.47% from 170% boost (scalar_buff) plus 0.02 +0.02 +0.05+0.04 (0.02 comes from skill tree, 0.02 come from 4 set bonus, 0.05 from slow time and 4% from TkT, added_buff) using equation:

(armor_rating*(1+scalar_buff))/((armor_rating*(1+scalar_buff))+240*55+800)+added_ buff

i dont have the info for new 78 gear yet. using 69,72, and 75 to extrapolate gives:

Level light heavy difference
69 2894 5466 2572
72 2999 5666 2667
75 3107 5869 2762
78 3213 6070 2857 extrapolated

where
light_armor_rating = 35.5*item_level + 444
heavy_armor_rating = 67.17*item_level+831

after applying each specs armor buff we get:

shadow: 95.85*item_level+1198.8
jugg: 118.556*item_level+1466.715
van: 119.227*item_level+1475.025

so shadows are behind by:
jugg: 22.71*item_level+267.915
VG: 23.38*item_level+276.225

when the item level is high enough for shadows' better mitigation buffs to be overshadowed (cute right) by other specs' armor rating, the combat team may need to revisit some stuff... if they had just given light armor the same coefficent for item level to armor as heavy, but changed the offset, this would not be troublesome.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.02.2013 , 01:30 PM | #102
I derived my numbers using the following…

Stat budget of 2600. Assuming S&V damage split (doesn't matter all that much as long as I'm consistent about it). Stat percentages are {0.232407 (defense), 0.380076 (shield), 0.473589 (absorb)} (looking at this actually printed out, things seem hinky; I'll check my numbers and repost later, continuing with explanation). Light armor rating at full 72 grade is precisely 2684, while the heavy armor rating is 5067 (numbers pulled out of AMR's database). Using scalars and addends according to teh following: {name -> "shadow", defenseAdd -> 0.11, defenseBonus -> 0.05,
shieldAdd -> 0.15, shieldBonus -> 0.2, absorbAdd -> 0.04,
absorbBonus -> 0.0552, resist -> 0.02, iresist -> 0.23,
armorScalar -> 1.7, armorAdd -> 0.08, endScalar -> 0.08}. (bonuses are additive, addends are additive, scalars are multiplicative on the rating) This gives a mitigation total of 0.57551.

As I noted, I think there's something wrong with my percentages, since the shield percentage looks extremely high while simultaneously I'm not certain that my computation is correctly considering bonuses.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Doulo's Avatar


Doulo
10.02.2013 , 02:24 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
If that's the case, then you're right, it would be more challenging. That would make it a very unique stacking buff though, since everything else in the game is refreshed rather than re-stacked. A good example of this is the Overload Saber DoT as a Watchman Sentinel.
This is how I read it as well, not a refresh, but restacking akin to bulwark. If it is simply a refresh, then the skill floor is dropped significantly, but a reapplication keeps a high skill level and seems more in line with what the healing did than a simple HoT refresh. As that would be similar to Bulwark it is not completely unique, but would, as Bulwark is, be unique to Shadows, which I like and is probably why I read it that way instead of a refresh.

This will be something we need to look at on the PTS and ensure that we both keep a significant skill differential and are still rewarded for that higher level of play.

-DG-'s Avatar


-DG-
10.02.2013 , 02:28 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by CourtneyWoods View Post
Hey Shadows,

... stuff.
With a try at nice wording... It sux.


I rather take the danger of being spiked to death and keep "my" self heals. Without it, it's a lot closer to the Guard/Jugg class. I'm one of those who "love" hybrid classes. If I play in a rather "normal relaxed" way, I'll do better with guard/jugg and van/pt - but when I really concentrate and focus 150%(actually mentally tough) ... well then "stuff" happens(wonderfull stuff, often enough).

Obviously the loss of the self healing won't in itself change the whole class. But the FEEL of the whole class(Shadow/Assasin) would become something else, for me.

Since I(as many other people) get notable attached to my main class and main character - such a "little" change might ruin the whole game experience for me. While it possibly ain't so, it sure feel like we got "what we deserved" - "you whiny little bunch... TAKE THIS!".

I don't want to have a "normalized" and "streamlined" tank class/character as main class/character.


//disappointed

/EDIT
Of course I'd like to keep the tank tree as is AND get some minor tweak to take place to reduce the spikyness.

//EDIT 2
I'm mainly concerned with the passive stance heal, and somewhat less concerned about high-tank-tree-spec X3 proc and heal on demand.

manchusabre's Avatar


manchusabre
10.02.2013 , 02:49 PM | #105
What?

We are very excited about all of the data we will be collecting when Season 1 begins.

So how far off is 2.5? There still isn't a date for season 1. So how long until "non wild-berry" shadows can dps in harder ops?

Doulo's Avatar


Doulo
10.02.2013 , 02:57 PM | #106
Removed as quoted post was edited.

TW-Cool's Avatar


TW-Cool
10.02.2013 , 03:09 PM | #107
Balance will still be the worst in a PVE situation since those enemies do not cleanse our dots now, do they? I mean sure we will enjoy the increase with Double Strike, but Whirling Blow? I dont think anyone uses that in a serious situation? And I dont know if Balance shadows are supposed to use Shadow Strike either? That force cost hurts.

-DG-'s Avatar


-DG-
10.02.2013 , 03:45 PM | #108
KBN, I'd like to remind you about you not only being a "class representative", but also a "representative of the People playing a certain class". I think you know the difference as well as the synergy.

While I nor no one else, probably, have or even could get accurate numbers of the people thinking/feeling This or That. It could be seen as safe to assume that Quite many people play the class because of it's lore, because of it's own uniqueness(tank class with small amount of self healing and stealth), because of the feel of the class, because of the story(lots of healing)... and a few other things(like the heal relics, I kinda enjoy that bit, and so does several other people).
... thus one could argue that a representative would also take All these people(and their thoughts and feelings) into consideration. Don't you think?

I'm not a cruncher of numbers, I'm rather a cruncher of minds(lol) and as you may already know... "feelings often enough, do not care about logic"(exists both good and bad sides/consequences because of this, thats another story though). Thus in this aspect you might have to be open about this/these perspective, as well as Also put the numbers aside, to a degree.

Bioware have made this game, of course Bioware got the potential to "fix" the spikyness of Shadows/Assassins - while still letting the class keep the healing in the tank stance(as well as the proc X3 on demand heal). Surely it won't be something overly trivial. But quite possible within reason - yes, thats highly likely. Well... fixing it "here and now" probably ain't that much of a hassle, but I mean over time, as the class, gear and game evolves.

Please consider my words.

Doulo's Avatar


Doulo
10.02.2013 , 05:02 PM | #109
DG,

I am not sure why you think KBN isn't concerned about lore of the feel of the class. Grumpf was the one who said he didn't concern himself with lore crap. I don't ever recall KBN saying anything negative about reinforcing commonly held ideas about lore. What I see is that KBN is concerned about making the game enjoyable from a technical aspect while preserving a distinction among the tanks. And while lore is very important for many people, I would venture to say that technical playability is a more important aspect of a game than adherence to traditional lore.
You are challenging KBN by saying he is advocating destroying the feel of one spec of this class. We don't know how the change is really going to affect the feel yet. That is going to play out on the PTS and the first weeks of 2.5. From a technical aspect this is a good technical change. There is significant disagreement about how this will alter the feel of the class as we look at the surface changes. I am one that doesn't think it will change too significantly, you think it will. This is the discussion and we are all, KBN and Xinika included, in it. None of us want the feel to change, else we would have rerolled, but we recognize that technical changes were necessary and those might impact the feel of the class as Xinika pointed out months ago.

Rilok_Singz's Avatar


Rilok_Singz
10.02.2013 , 05:26 PM | #110
Can honestly say i'm happy with the changes made to the kinetic tree. Between guard swapping, taunting, dodging aoe's, and making sure the other teams cant stop your self-heal - you never really had the chance to use it. If the scoundrel healer couldn't keep you up, that self-heal didn't do much anyway.
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