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Boarding party final convo misogyny


Damastes's Avatar


Damastes
09.14.2013 , 04:03 AM | #11
I sympathize with you for having to deal with a player like that. Oh, if he wants to hate women, that's his right, as it is ours to condemn him for it; however, trying to force the way the conversation unfolded, just to rub it in, was a bridge too far in my opinion.

That being said, I think we dehumanize men and infantilize women when we regard violence against women as worse than, rather than equal to, violence against men. And I think we do a disservice to women when we say that women need to be protected from the portrayal of fantasy violence perpetrated against women, as it is just another way of saying that women are weaker than men, who do not require that protection. I hope we can agree that violence against anyone is bad, and that women do not require special protections based on reasons that are destined to be inherently insulting to women.

Fantasy violence is what it is. I can enjoy winning dark side rolls without revealing myself as, or becoming, a monster. While the player in question clearly enjoyed the pistol-whipping for his own hateful reasons, there is nothing about the action itself that is inherently worse than the endless killing or torturing of either gender we do in this game. (I'd be interested in seeing how often we are able to torture or beat up men in this game compared to women. I'd actually be impressed if there wasn't a sizable difference in gender representation in such scenarios.)

By the way, you know what else isn't really funny (when looked at objectively, because society clearly considers it to be funny, much like a certain thing that happens to men in prison all the time), and is exceptionally painful when it occurs? A kick to the groin. And yet it's celebrated in the game with its own skill
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mcrmorgan's Avatar


mcrmorgan
09.14.2013 , 05:11 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Damastes View Post
I sympathize with you for having to deal with a player like that. Oh, if he wants to hate women, that's his right, as it is ours to condemn him for it; however, trying to force the way the conversation unfolded, just to rub it in, was a bridge too far in my opinion.

That being said, I think we dehumanize men and infantilize women when we regard violence against women as worse than, rather than equal to, violence against men. And I think we do a disservice to women when we say that women need to be protected from the portrayal of fantasy violence perpetrated against women, as it is just another way of saying that women are weaker than men, who do not require that protection. I hope we can agree that violence against anyone is bad, and that women do not require special protections based on reasons that are destined to be inherently insulting to women.

Fantasy violence is what it is. I can enjoy winning dark side rolls without revealing myself as, or becoming, a monster. While the player in question clearly enjoyed the pistol-whipping for his own hateful reasons, there is nothing about the action itself that is inherently worse than the endless killing or torturing of either gender we do in this game. (I'd be interested in seeing how often we are able to torture or beat up men in this game compared to women. I'd actually be impressed if there wasn't a sizable difference in gender representation in such scenarios.)

By the way, you know what else isn't really funny (when looked at objectively, because society clearly considers it to be funny, much like a certain thing that happens to men in prison all the time), and is exceptionally painful when it occurs? A kick to the groin. And yet it's celebrated in the game with its own skill
I agree entirely with this sentiment, particularly the second paragraph, you just beat me to writing something along similar lines.

That's not to say there shouldn't be a discussion about it mind.
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Xakthul's Avatar


Xakthul
09.14.2013 , 07:08 AM | #13
Yeah... I'm like Light 4 or 5 cause I was romancing Vette. I did the option to hit the captain like, once, got my kick out of it, replayed and just took the Light option to capture her or whatever.

I agree that people shouldn't laugh at that cause it's a woman. I just thought it was an ironic and slightly amusing ending for one playthrough. But don't go like "I'm hitting women, har har har." If it was a guy, I would've pommel-whipped him, too. I don't discriminate against anybody in the game. I beat them all up Just joking, but seriously, don't repeatedly make comments like that.
Duelist Mixalot, Grand Champ Tellsa, Lord Saml, Apprentice Syynx, Captain Cirris, Skirmisher Janewei, Jedi Knight Jugger'not, Agent Ez'zio of <Wookies and Cream>, Harbinger
"Aim for the trolls! Kill the trolls!"- Gandalf

thecoffeecup's Avatar


thecoffeecup
09.14.2013 , 07:50 AM | #14
I sympathize with the OP who apparently ran into some pretty awful people. While I don't think most people who choose that dialogue option do it for misogynistic reasons, I guess I can see how it empowers certain pathetic individuals, and even though I'm not a woman, I would also feel very uncomfortable in that situation.

Would have reported them for what they said and the fact that they kicked you for no good reason.

I won't be picking that option in the future I think. To me it's just another annoying NPC so the thought that it has anything to do with beating women in general never really crossed my mind. However, if it's perceived this way, I'll pick something else.

So-low's Avatar


So-low
09.14.2013 , 08:27 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Mireleni View Post
I know you meant that as a joke, but the fact that you made the joke is part of the problem. If someone on the forum complained about a perceived racist aspect of the game, would you say, "OP's slave master shouldn't have let him in the house today" or "OP shouldn't be posting in here, he needs to go sit down in the back of the forum"? I hope not.
Yes absolutely! I love offending people in this game. I think it's funny how seriously people take this game.

Bleeters's Avatar


Bleeters
09.14.2013 , 08:36 AM | #16
Can't say I ever viewed the flashpoint dialogue that way, but the behaviour of the people in that group is disgusting. You lasted longer than I did, at least. I'd have bailed at the 'hurr hurr let's rape her' bullcrap.

As for the responsibility of the dialogue, well. Again, I'd not go so far as to say it's mysognistic myself, but I would venture that Empire choices, in general, seem to have a lot more involving individual suffering - torturing and murdering people for no apparent reason, gloating whilst you do it - than Republic does, and whilst I'm not going to make any generalisations on Empire playerbases and say it's true of everyone or even a majority, them seemingly attracting certain kinds of people is one of the major reasons I demoted my characters there to singleplayer content.

Xakthul's Avatar


Xakthul
09.14.2013 , 09:02 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
Can't say I ever viewed the flashpoint dialogue that way, but the behaviour of the people in that group is disgusting. You lasted longer than I did, at least. I'd have bailed at the 'hurr hurr let's rape her' bullcrap.

As for the responsibility of the dialogue, well. Again, I'd not go so far as to say it's mysognistic myself, but I would venture that Empire choices, in general, seem to have a lot more involving individual suffering - torturing and murdering people for no apparent reason, gloating whilst you do it - than Republic does, and whilst I'm not going to make any generalisations on Empire playerbases and say it's true of everyone or even a majority, them seemingly attracting certain kinds of people is one of the major reasons I demoted my characters there to singleplayer content.
Meh. I just stay within my guild or existing friends to run FPs. At least I know that they're joking when they make those comments like "lets rape her", etc.
Duelist Mixalot, Grand Champ Tellsa, Lord Saml, Apprentice Syynx, Captain Cirris, Skirmisher Janewei, Jedi Knight Jugger'not, Agent Ez'zio of <Wookies and Cream>, Harbinger
"Aim for the trolls! Kill the trolls!"- Gandalf

thecoffeecup's Avatar


thecoffeecup
09.14.2013 , 09:13 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Bleeters View Post
whilst I'm not going to make any generalisations on Empire playerbases and say it's true of everyone or even a majority, them seemingly attracting certain kinds of people is one of the major reasons I demoted my characters there to singleplayer content.
I know just what you mean. I recently saw a newbie ask for help on Imp Balmorra. He was repeatedly lectured in general about the Sith code and how he was weak for even asking (and how others can solo it). It's this kind of idiocy that sometimes makes me wish I had stayed on the Rep side with all my characters. However, I'm not sure it's actually better there. At least they don't go on and on about the Sith code though.

Xakthul's Avatar


Xakthul
09.14.2013 , 09:31 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by thecoffeecup View Post
I know just what you mean. I recently saw a newbie ask for help on Imp Balmorra. He was repeatedly lectured in general about the Sith code and how he was weak for even asking (and how others can solo it). It's this kind of idiocy that sometimes makes me wish I had stayed on the Rep side with all my characters. However, I'm not sure it's actually better there. At least they don't go on and on about the Sith code though.
I agree, but I still play the Imp for the storyline and the companion romance and whatnot. It's funny to see all the morons going on about the Sith code, and then they try to duel my lvl 45 Marauder before they realize I'm lvl 45. So, I win
Duelist Mixalot, Grand Champ Tellsa, Lord Saml, Apprentice Syynx, Captain Cirris, Skirmisher Janewei, Jedi Knight Jugger'not, Agent Ez'zio of <Wookies and Cream>, Harbinger
"Aim for the trolls! Kill the trolls!"- Gandalf

horrorfaneightys's Avatar


horrorfaneightys
09.14.2013 , 09:39 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by thecoffeecup View Post
I sympathize with the OP who apparently ran into some pretty awful people. While I don't think most people who choose that dialogue option do it for misogynistic reasons, I guess I can see how it empowers certain pathetic individuals, and even though I'm not a woman, I would also feel very uncomfortable in that situation.

Would have reported them for what they said and the fact that they kicked you for no good reason.

I won't be picking that option in the future I think. To me it's just another annoying NPC so the thought that it has anything to do with beating women in general never really crossed my mind. However, if it's perceived this way, I'll pick something else.
This is pretty much my viewpoint too. I think it's much more about the people you were playing with than the situation. To be honest, I would have left the group the second that gang rape joke came up. I'm not a particularly feminist woman, but that sort of thing is never funny.

But asking Bioware to change something because a minority of freak losers get a kick out of it that they shouldn't isn't right either. Because they would have to get rid of all the violence against men too, to be fair to everyone. The majority of the people that play don't get that sort of enjoyment out of it, and games should not have to remove stuff because of the ones that do. That goes for everything in life in my opinion.