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It has come, Sniper/Slinger ORBITAL/FLYBY NERFS

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
It has come, Sniper/Slinger ORBITAL/FLYBY NERFS

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
09.10.2013 , 02:48 PM | #11
While I'm not excited about this, I expected it seeing the numbers an AOE like Flyby ability can produce on a single target. However, if they are swapping around PvP set bonuses I hope they will look at PvE ones again, particularly the 4pc. I understand it's important for Dirty Fighting, but adds little for the other two specs.

paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 02:52 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by BaineOs View Post
If they do that then it's nothing but a nerf.
Quote:
should the engineering snipers suffer just because the other specs use it in their rotations? Bearing in mind you are referring to pve I'm referring to pvp.
Yes in PVE the intent is very clear. It's a nerf. Period. But since you are talking about PVP...

All I can say is the revamped OS/XS will let you use it more in the same amount of time. As an Engi Sniper... this might be a good change for you? Spam Orbital/Flyby on those nodes! lol.

~Say we get a ~45 second Orbital as Engi Sniper. Remember ~one ~intent of this nerf is to reduce SINGLE TARGET PvE DPS for certain specs when you try to use it on cooldown on a single target fight.. As a PVP Engi Sniper, do you even rely on Orbital for single target DPS to bring down.. say a healer for example? I don't think you do. This change should not adversely affect you as a PVP Engi Sniper.

They want us to use Orbital/Flyby only when multiple targets are present, not to keep it on CD on a single target PVE fight. Since in PvP you can now spam it more won't you see a personal AoE DPS gain with this change? In PvP where you have multiple targets 24/7, as a PVP engi sniper, won't you prefer an Orbital with
  • lower cd
  • lower energy cost
  • lower activation time?

Unless you are telling me you are looking to rely on your Orbital Strike to single target somebody down when arena comes out. For Engi Snipers I believe Explosive Probe -> SoS / SaboC -> SS serves this purpose, NOT OS/Flyby.

This could be a blessing in disguise for PVP Snipers/Slingers.
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oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
09.10.2013 , 02:57 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by BaineOs View Post
So how do they nerf it for snipers without nerfing it for engineering snipers as well? We're still going to be effected by the same changes....unless they change the engineering tree to compensate.
that's a big question they have to answer and i would guess one of the reasons why there hasn't been any change yet.
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.10.2013 , 04:41 PM | #14
Updated OP for parses.
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KingofGob's Avatar


KingofGob
09.10.2013 , 04:56 PM | #15
I honestly think this was a necessary evil and will actually be good for the game a whole. The cleanest way I see to change flyby without ruining it's utility in aoe situations is to make the damage scale based off of how many targets are standing in it up to a cap. Just changing activation times, energy cost or cool down does nothing to actually fix the root of the problem. Changing cool down or cost wouldn't do a thing to remove it from the rotation, unless the cost becomes so prohibitive that it's impossible to use; at which point no one would consider using. Changing the ability cast time is something, but without doing any math, I think even if they doubled the cast time on flyby there would still be situations when I would use it in single target situations. I don't think they want to straight nerf the damage so having the ability scale would allow it to remain a great situational ability without letting it be a factor in single target situations. They could even rework some of the talents in the engineering tree to allow it to hit for max damage on one target.
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Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
09.10.2013 , 05:16 PM | #16
Common knowledge has been officially recognised.


It ought to be damage/cost adjusted so that using it or not using it on single targets makes no difference to DPS.

Something that won't happen while it does incredibly cheap armour bypassing damage.

9000 elemental damage on a boss is equal to a kinetic/energy attack with no armour penetration of 14000 tooltip damage.
Notwired @ Not Good Enough @ TRE

BaineOs's Avatar


BaineOs
09.10.2013 , 05:45 PM | #17
Quote:
All I can say is the revamped OS/XS will let you use it more in the same amount of time. As an Engi Sniper... this might be a good change for you? Spam Orbital/Flyby on those nodes! lol.
Not in my book, for a start we use plasma probe for "nodes". The orbital strike is there to either expand the aoe area, move people out the way (drop it and watch them move) or help in the aoe damage of multiple players.

Quote:
~Say we get a ~45 second Orbital as Engi Sniper. Remember ~one ~intent of this nerf is to reduce SINGLE TARGET PvE DPS for certain specs when you try to use it on cooldown on a single target fight.. As a PVP Engi Sniper, do you even rely on Orbital for single target DPS to bring down.. say a healer for example? I don't think you do. This change should not adversely affect you as a PVP Engi Sniper.
PVP is very subjective, there are far too many variables. For every scenario there is a counter and for ever counter there's a another counter for that counter. That's why your example of a healer is very difficult to answer. How good is the healer? There are a lot of healers out there that unfortunately aren't that good so any class can kill them. On the other hand a good healer is a pain for any class to kill. I know what you're trying to point out but do you see where I'm coming from?

Quote:
Since in PvP you can now spam it more won't you see a personal AoE DPS gain with this change?
DPS gain is an issue for pver's (not meant in a negative way so apologies if you take it like that). I happen to think there's a lot more to the sniper class than just dps. Everyone seems to think that's all we can do. Disagree strongly, always have always will

That being said to answer your question. For me personally? Not really because any sniper that just sits around is going to be pounced on by every decent enemy player, you have to move. Enemy players move, you simply don't have any option but to move if you want to have a competitive game. Quite how you move and where you go of course is a different thing entirely. What's the point in dealing out damage if the objective isn't being achieved? Damage isn't the answer to everything.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that no, I don't believe it'll be a boost to us just because we can cast it more often. By the very definition it'll do less damage so with all the aoe reducing skills some of the other classes have they'll be less concerned about it. They won't move out of the way because it'll be easier to heal through. The extra utility that orbital will provide will be lost.

Because pvp is very situational you aren't spamming orbital every time it's on cooldown like you are in pve. You're not seeing that dps from orbital in the same way. Now in single target dps again it's very situational. There are some classes that you know it's a waste of time trying to move. Sure you can move around with our covered escape and the like but certain other classes have a way of catching up to you. Sooner or later you need to make a stand. This is where your final bit that I'd like to quote comes in:

Quote:
Unless you are telling me you are looking to rely on your Orbital Strike to single target somebody down when arena comes out. For Engi Snipers I believe Explosive Probe -> SoS / SaboC -> SS serves this purpose, NOT OS/Flyby.

This could be a blessing in disguise for PVP Snipers/Slingers.
We have a burst that is high damage but it relies on a skill that has a 30s cooldown. If your single target is half decent then he's already worked out a counter for that. So once that has gone you need something else. For me that is where orbital strike comes in. So do I rely upon orbital strike to take down a single target? Yes I do, in the right situation.

That being said I do admit it is very satisfying to legshot a senti/guardian, interrogation probe, covered escape to melee range, plasma probe, entrench, debilitate, orbital strike, explosive probe, series of shots. Normally results on a quick kill. Now is this OP? Again it's very situational, people will say yes it is but I can assure you try and do that on someone like Dakaru from Nostrum Dolus and it won't work (tried it ).

If I can refer to the sniper answer from Eric

Quote:
While all of this is less than ideal, making changes to Explosive Probe and Orbital Strike could have negative effects on the other Sniper specializations,
Quote:
We are not completely satisfied with how Engineering currently plays in general. When compared to Lethality or Marksmanship, Engineering feels rather clunky.
Quote:
and lack of a well-flowing rotation – thanks to the extremely long cooldowns on Explosive Probe and Orbital Strike,
and finally but most importantly this bit from the scoundrel answers.
Quote:
with a possible exception for the Saboteur/Engineering Gunslinger/Sniper
Those are obviously direct quotes from larger sentances/paragraphs but if you add all those up together it's very telling. They have a problem with orbital strike and engineering snipers, they've all but admitted that. I love the sniper class...the engineering spec specifically with a passion Paowee. The engineering sniper will be hit harder than the other sniper specs, it stands to reason. From a pvp perspective (mine obviously) I cannot see how they can make that change without looking at the rest of the engineering tree.

...and can I say damn!!! Never intended this to be that long. My bad.
Es'carli D'Lakutos (Active) - Baine Os Juros (Active)
Engineering: The Evolution

BetaKiller's Avatar


BetaKiller
09.10.2013 , 06:03 PM | #18
That's what I was afraid of when I read their answer.....
Oh well....

My honest guess is that OS is an issue they are not going to solve as easily as they say. The issue with the skill is the fire-and-forget nature of it because it essentially behaves as a dot, if any spec can fit it into rotation or can allow a few seconds in order to cast it people will use it for single-target.
I'm curious to see what they'll come up with, they have the players metrics. One thing I do think they'll do is change the damage from elemental to energy.

New parses will help but if we check the highest parses right now we can see how much % OS constitutes for that DPS (between 10 - 12 % last time I checked), given the current numbers that change may bring us down below every other class but Assassin/Shadow (going for 0% OS single-target). So unless they buff somewhere else to accommodate no use of OS we can expect that the change they apply will not destroy OS into oblivion, but most likely will only discourage us to use OS on cooldown and keep its nerfed version for alpha strike moments, for MM/Lethality, while keeping it in the Engineering rotation they have planned.

Just hope my second fear wont happen of they destroying one of the only fun mechanics they ever made (Scatter Bombs) just because they planned it to be just a fluff skill instead of actual useful -.-

BetaKiller's Avatar


BetaKiller
09.10.2013 , 06:11 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by KingofGob View Post
I honestly think this was a necessary evil and will actually be good for the game a whole. The cleanest way I see to change flyby without ruining it's utility in aoe situations is to make the damage scale based off of how many targets are standing in it up to a cap. Just changing activation times, energy cost or cool down does nothing to actually fix the root of the problem. Changing cool down or cost wouldn't do a thing to remove it from the rotation, unless the cost becomes so prohibitive that it's impossible to use; at which point no one would consider using. Changing the ability cast time is something, but without doing any math, I think even if they doubled the cast time on flyby there would still be situations when I would use it in single target situations. I don't think they want to straight nerf the damage so having the ability scale would allow it to remain a great situational ability without letting it be a factor in single target situations. They could even rework some of the talents in the engineering tree to allow it to hit for max damage on one target.
Thought of that too but that will kill the use of a skill that correspond to around 5-7% (lower player) and 10-12% (top player) of a Sniper damage without adjusting any other skill or adding value to the class. So the scaling can't be as rough which means OS will most likely still be used for single-target, can't see a decent scaling that would make this work.
Gosh >.< I wish they could give us a little more information, right now it's like walking blind.

BaineOs's Avatar


BaineOs
09.10.2013 , 06:17 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by BetaKiller View Post
Just hope my second fear wont happen of they destroying one of the only fun mechanics they ever made (Scatter Bombs) just because they planned it to be just a fluff skill instead of actual useful -.-
Ya about that. In time you'll see that get nerfed.
Quote:
That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.
There are snipers out there that are using this as a key part of their rotation in pvp. They normally run around with their friends, usually a healer and just constantly wall bang anyone they see close next to a structure. Sure they do other skills as well and they do have some skill in the way they play a sniper but that's not what I call "every now and then", it's part of their rotation which goes against:
Quote:
We don’t intend for Scatter Bombs to be rotational in any way, shape, or form (for PvE or PvP usage).
Es'carli D'Lakutos (Active) - Baine Os Juros (Active)
Engineering: The Evolution