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Scoundrel Top 3 Answers

 
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SithEBM's Avatar


SithEBM
09.21.2013 , 07:25 PM | #281
Spoiler

^ This.

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
09.22.2013 , 05:55 AM | #282
Quote: Originally Posted by SithEBM View Post
^ This.
I agree with most of the assessment, but you can't forget that Scrappers have higher sustained damage than infil shadows, so the burst we don't have doesn't equate to something BW is going to care about since all they do is look at the damage you can do on a dummy and say "nope, they're right where they should be". They have never placed pvp at the epicenter of their balancing, so any changes you think could/should be made would directly impact the raiding community, which at this point is probably 10x larger than the remaining pvp community.

1.7 pvp was fine, and all BW did was dumb down classes with 2.0 to make them easier for the overall community to play, thus reducing the skill cap needed, which was already low in some instances. They have one single person in charge of class balancing, so the thing you need to realize is that they do not have the necessary resources allocated to put forth an actual, quality experience like other MMOs. And just think, that one guy can't possibly be doing class balancing at his very moment, if he were, then we'd see,ore frequent changes. Nope, I'd bet he's got other hats to wear at BW in addition to what we all think he's dedicated to doing. All because of their poor planning from the launch of this game, they obviously had to cut most of their workforce, and even now that they're actually making money they won't allocate more resources, or create new jobs, for class balancing or even just general QA testing (God forbid).

The game is still losing subscribers, even as more F2Pers arrive, so this is a slippery slope any way you look at it. The way I looked at it recently is his: All the good pvpers I've known seem to have vanished or moved on. Now there are decent ppl I play against, but they are watered down versions of those truly amazing players I no longer see. They've seen the light and have decided to put their time and money into something else. Shouldn't you?

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
09.22.2013 , 06:11 AM | #283
Not even just what I posted, but BW is also blatantly biased towards certain classes. We've complained for 2 years, but vanguards and PTs are complaining for like a few months and look at all the attention they are getting with their balancing next patch. They are still better in pvp than scrappers, and they are getting buffed.

And remember 2.0 on the PTS? All the time/effort people put into telling what they thought should be addressed, but BW knew better and didn't listen, just rushed it out the door. I was on the PTS as an operative and as a shadow, op felt way too squishy compared to 1.7 which was still on live, and my shadow felt *fine*, but shadows were complaining about their survivability in pvp so BW gave us the changes to Potent Shadows, reducing cooldown on Force Potency (our near autocrit ability for force attacks) to effectively be on demand every time we restealth. The general populous are not stellar at pvp, so they complain and they get their class buffed and dumbed down at the same time. I love my shadow, but that change only dumbed down the class to what we see now, with all these heroes running around able to do nasty damage on a spec which didn't need any changes. 1.7 shadows were still monsters, now it's just dumbed down.

TL;DR: Look at where your money, and more importantly TIME, goes to. They don't listen and only want your cash, and for those actually reading this post, I'd bet you are not one of those classes that are being catered to, so you probably understand exactly what I mean.

SithEBM's Avatar


SithEBM
09.23.2013 , 10:01 PM | #284
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
Not even just what I posted, but BW is also blatantly biased towards certain classes. We've complained for 2 years, but vanguards and PTs are complaining for like a few months and look at all the attention they are getting with their balancing next patch. They are still better in pvp than scrappers, and they are getting buffed.

And remember 2.0 on the PTS? All the time/effort people put into telling what they thought should be addressed, but BW knew better and didn't listen, just rushed it out the door. I was on the PTS as an operative and as a shadow, op felt way too squishy compared to 1.7 which was still on live, and my shadow felt *fine*, but shadows were complaining about their survivability in pvp so BW gave us the changes to Potent Shadows, reducing cooldown on Force Potency (our near autocrit ability for force attacks) to effectively be on demand every time we restealth. The general populous are not stellar at pvp, so they complain and they get their class buffed and dumbed down at the same time. I love my shadow, but that change only dumbed down the class to what we see now, with all these heroes running around able to do nasty damage on a spec which didn't need any changes. 1.7 shadows were still monsters, now it's just dumbed down.

TL;DR: Look at where your money, and more importantly TIME, goes to. They don't listen and only want your cash, and for those actually reading this post, I'd bet you are not one of those classes that are being catered to, so you probably understand exactly what I mean.
Hopefully this petition will save the scrapper class

We are working on getting people from harbringer/JC. So far, we have every Competitive PvP guild from PoT5 on it.

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
09.24.2013 , 11:14 AM | #285
I'm with you on your cause but you have to look at the problem and realize there is no solution.

Those problems are:
  • BW balances dps based on what you can do on a text dummy. a class like ours ha no control on our crit chances like auto crit classes do. We hit faster than or counterpart, the shadow, but crit for less damage. On a dummy this all equates to higher sustained damage than a shadow, so BW won't understand the issue on burst damage since they only look at the sustained damage on a dummy like morons.
  • Our defensive cooldowns can't be redone without directly impacting sawbones, which would but then over the edge.
  • They don't want to give a class that already had several "annoying" stuns any more utility, so they'll leave it in its current state.

Plus, I'd sign off for JC, but we'll need to get Carth involved on it as well, and I haven't seen him play in a while, so not sure if he retired his scrapper or what.

Plus we have one scrapper on our server who is convinced that scrappers are better in every aspect to infiltration shadows so you might not want anyone praising scrappers on that thread.

player-klaus's Avatar


player-klaus
09.27.2013 , 02:05 AM | #286
dear eric,

thinking about scouperative (i play both) and arena, i have some concernes i want to share.

1. our survivability:
since it is well known that we dont have competitive dcd's, i fear the most common strategy facing a scouperative dps is, to burn him down fast for the win (first kill will decide like every round).

2. our energy-managment:
is balanced for pve. but pvp/deathmatch is all about burst. i think it is impossible to mix "filler" like autoshot in a rotation, in order to get a fast kill and keep energy up. ending up energy-starved is inevitable. so, if i end up without energy but me and my team fail to manage a kill in this short timeframe, i will become more or less useless.

3. lethality/dirty
no chance to coordinate mezzes because acid-grenade as it is now, make this impossible

4. concealment/scrapper
energie-starving and massive survivability problems in melee-range

this leads to my concerns:

who will que with a scouperative dps?
will ppl leave the match if i join in random?

if our opponents are smart they go for #1. but my team knows that they cant keep me alive, even with guard and taunt active. why should they stay in the match?
and if i might survive the first 20-30 seconds of the match, we are at #2. no matter how shady and slippery i might be. experienced players know this.
will i end up on ppls ignore-list, in order to not get same que as them?

it feels like jugg/guardian, pt/vg, scouphealing, sent/mara, revo/sniper and even sorc/sage dps will get their arena patch and we(dispite some other builds) are out of the loop.

we cant participate without offending other players. from a social point of view this is absolut unaceptable. you will break friendships (because ppl wont que with scouperative-dps) and this is very unhealthy for the community.

if i were ea, i would postpone pve content and gay romances for the price of making the pvp-players happy for at least a year... but who am i.

Yestreen's Avatar


Yestreen
09.27.2013 , 12:28 PM | #287
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Actually, I have a better metaphor for how it feels playing Scrapper in SWTOR PvP.

It's like a regular guy going into a rough bar. There's a musclebound git in there beating people up at the pool table. Sure, he's got a kevlar vest and an aluminium baseball bat, but you're the one who's there and someone needs to try and stop him.

So you go up behind him and break your bottle over his head. If you're lucky, he'll go down, and you can get in enough punches and kicks that he'll stay down. But if he doesn't - and chances are he won't - then he's going to turn around, he's twice your size and he's got that baseball bat and body armour to your broken bottle. If he connects he's going to deck you, and you've little chance of hurting him in return.

Oh, and his mates have all just spotted you and turned around too. Let's hope there''s something you can disappear behind, though you're probably toast at this point.

Then you hear that the bar's put a cage around the pool table, and the musclebound oaf's now got a head protector (25% instead of 50% HP cost for Undying) or has put nails in his baseball bat (root on Ravage for Juggs). And the bar's only selling beer in plastic mugs (nerf Flyby).

If you're that regular guy, eventually you're going to find somewhere else to drink.

hahah I love it.
Wurdlol
<Hey im mvp>
www.twitch.tv/wurdlolswtor

Chiltonium's Avatar


Chiltonium
10.05.2013 , 03:36 AM | #288
I keep checking this thread daily with my fingers crossed in the hopes of good news.

My operative is my favorite class to play. The story, the voice actor, the demeanor, the companions, the feel of the stabbing and the shooting (I play lethality) combined. Oh god, it feels so perfectly awesome. I am the running, gunning, stabbing, super secret space james bond!

Then I get into pvp.

The agent / scoundrel is meant to be "slippery?" Try having a smash monkey jump on you. Evade wont stop the force damage, cloak and roll away now only blows a long long CD but you're probably gonna get hit anway, he'll just awe/roar.

If you want operatives/scoundrels to be slippery, make them slippery. Powertechs are more slippery and they're in GIGANTIC armor with JET PACKS. Yet they press a button, lolol cant stop me for 10 seconds!!

Agents get no movement speed impairing immunities.
Agents get only 1 thing to break movement speed impairing effects, which must be talented and takes 1.5s to activate (smashed by then.)
Agents get no abilities to ignore damage other than a probe on a 45s CD that absorbs as much as jug force scream shield.
Agents get absolutey 0 damage reduction talents whatsoever outside of the healer tree. They are not only not slippery, they're possibly the squishiest class in the game. Squishy...melee....ugh.

I understand that you at Bioware wish to make different playstyles, and heck I agree with where you're going on most of them. With the exception of nerfing agents over the last 2 years, then turning deception assassins into what agents were burst wise, and giving them monster damage reduction in one tree, and the ability to heal like mad in the other (I do LOVE my madness sin!)

However you need to sit back, look at how you want them to play, and then most importantly....play it. Play it in every warzone, play it against every class, get one on an actual server and queue warzones with real people. Preferably on a pvp server.

What I am seeing so far, and this is of course, my opinion:

Concealment - This is the most melee centric spec. You are up front in the fight, you HAVE to stand on peoples feet and stab them. Yet.....you dont have the tools or fortitude to stand up to them if they should look at you funny. Seriously, it takes nearly any class thats not a healer seconds to kill an operative. (speaking equal gear and experience, there are some ops who run circles around baddies all day!) Concealment seems like where you wanted the WHAM BAM BAM you're dead tree to be. However you have a class that does less burst than a marauder, sniper, deception assassin, and rage jug, yet has nowhere near the survivability of any of those. This tree needs more burst and for shield probe to be way. WAY better. Get in, stab stab stab, probe does its job, get out! Also, revitilizers is dumb. It needs to heal for much more, or just change it to something like, acid blade heals you for x per tick. It is on a long CD after all since you can only apply it on bstab.

Lethality - This is my favorite spec, and how I enjoy playing most characters. Hence the madness sin and Pyro PT. The run n' gun dot spec. Build it up slowly, then WHAM!!! Well that's assuming you live long enough to build it up. This goes for madness assassins as well, this tree needs SURVIVAL EVERYWHERE. The concealment tree would be great with a nice boost to shield probe, but this tree needs all around survival. I'd say a talent similar to the AP powertechs 30% less on aoe 30% less on stuns in one talent would be a -start-. Then toss in something you could call, say "leaching nanotech" like sins parasitism. I cannot stress enough to need to have a build that must spend the time that any other class is using to hit for 5k + to toss darts that do 0 initial damage, grenades that tick once for miniscule damage, and a debuff to set up for cull, and generally do absolutely nothing. And honestly? Cull isnt even that worth it. It doesnt do much more than a laceration + collateral strike proc (it does do more, but not enough to warrant the crazy ramp up time). Oh, and the dots tick for crap compared to other dot spec classes. Madness sins hitting for 1.5k per tick on 2 dots, and another that ticks every second for 900 with an initial hit of 2.5k. While my dots WITH weakening blast (Which is a measly 10 charges) hit for 1k to 1.2k and I only get 2.

Medicine - Er, I -am- an operative, and I do run medicine from time to time when needed. So ...I cant say anything that this tree needs, if anything I find it is TOO good. When a raid is failing, or a group cant pass something in content. Be it a raid boss, a new HM thats just come out, they call me in because the sorc cant keep up. And in pvp? trolololol good luck killing me without 3+ people on me at once. If I'm guarded, good luck with your entire team on me.

I only make this long post in hopes that others feel the same. This is the class that keeps me playing, just because this is what I would want to be in the Star Wars universe. Space James Bond working for the empire, tracking down and solving those problems others cant! However when every other class turns pvp into James Bond vs Wolverine, I'm afraid Wolverine kinda pwns James Bond ....

Edit -

Maul-and just for the reccord, Maul is possibly the most ridiculous skill in the game, in my opinion. Are you kidding me? It does more damage than backstab WITHOUT duplicity, and 30+% more than backstab with duplicity up. I have a sin in my guild regularly hitting for 9k+ with duplicity and 7k without it. And guess what its cooldown is? ZERO. Guess how many times you can spam it with darkswell up (which can stay up for 24 seconds if used right) AS MANY AS YOU WANT. And you talk about hidden strike doing "good damage because stealth and behind is required" what the heck is the excuse for maul?

Shield Probe - This skill is just garbage. The damage it absorbs, even with 30% more from the lethality tree is so miniscule I dont even notice most of the time. And the cooldown is crazy. Sorc bubble is no CD 20sec immunity to bubbling self (so lets say 20 sec CD) and absorbs FAR. FAR more. Shields CD? 45 seconds. It cant be absorbing more than 3kish and I am in pretty dang decent gear.

Background - I'd also like to say not only have I played this game since launch day, and have a 55 of every imperial class, but since 1998 I have quite literally, played every single MMO on the American market with the exception of Anarchy Online. So I have a lot of experience to fall back onto. Saying that, I honestly feel ToR is the second best mmo pvp I have ever experienced. This class in general (and madness sin) just really need some love. I'd say vengeance juggs need some love in the defense area as well, and poor mercs need it almost as bad as us. (although I rage and stomp every time I get electro netted. GRR).

So please...please just sit back and re-evaluate this class. I feel that it got so much heat at launch it was nerfed and forgotten. I think if you sit back and compare it to everyone else you will see that you have raised everyone else above the poor OPs and left em in the dirt. For instance, remember nerfing acid blade from 50% armor pen to 30% armor penn because, hey, 50% armor penn is unreal! Count how many classes now have 50% or more armor Penn.
Syasentas - 55 Operative
Syadestis - 55 Powertech
Syaseheth - 55 Assassin
SyasehethS - 55 Juggernaut (yea, same name with an s, so what, wanna fight about it?)

Cryowolf's Avatar


Cryowolf
10.05.2013 , 12:06 PM | #289
Nice post! (To the guy above me)

I'd like to see Surprise Comeback in the Scrapper tree reworked to modify Heartrigger Patch into a powerful self buff. The skill is not even on my bars since noone lays around dead in a WZ and you can't revive in Arenas.

Massively reduce the cooldown (down to 1 min), make it a self cast buff only and have it bring you back to ~30% life in stealth. Something to let us live (or die and live again, heh) through a focus switch in Arenas. Or as you mention, a nice buff to Shield Probe, really anything to make it better than it is.
Raisins--Scoundrel--The Harbinger

Sideblaze's Avatar


Sideblaze
10.07.2013 , 03:48 PM | #290
1: "Psh, Ignore that assassin doing 8k executes and 10k mauls, you guys are fine with your front loaded burst that doesn't really do much against evenly geared players. Also, we might 'maybe' sort-of nerf your main opener and buff overload shot so you HAVE to use it."

2:"Heals are OP, we'll agree with you guys on this because we like the word "nerf" alot. Oh, and uh, we're going to stick our d*ck in your skill trees.

3: "Hey guys, i know that assassins and rage warriors can do everything you can do without stealth, and can melt you. but hey, let's nerf the one cool thing you get that no one else gets."


Meanwhile...

Assassin's #1 answer "Yeah, you guys are so underpowered compared to those operatives you melt in 3 GCDs. Want a 30% damage buff all-around?"