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Juggernaut Top 3 Answers

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

manchusabre's Avatar


manchusabre
09.11.2013 , 12:55 PM | #101
[QUOTE=EricMusco;6740412]Alright folks! Here are your top 3 issues and their answers back from the Combat team.

The gaps between our damage dealing specializations are already small for a game with this many specializations, but we will be working to shrink those gaps even further over time.


What? Have they never looked at the torparse leaderbard? There isn't a small gap. This probably why everyone is rolling a sniper/gunslinger now.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
09.11.2013 , 01:03 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by manchusabre View Post
What? Have they never looked at the torparse leaderbard? There isn't a small gap. This probably why everyone is rolling a sniper/gunslinger now.
The gap (between the extreme high and the extreme low) is just 7.6%. See the discussion earlier in the thread for a justification of this number. 7.6% is still a wider gap than would be ideal, but it's far from the catastrophic DPS imbalance that everyone seems to believe in.
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Luckeyduckey's Avatar


Luckeyduckey
09.11.2013 , 01:27 PM | #103
Remove the DoT on Shatter, and add the current DoT damage + Initial damage as it is now. Bam. Instant burst.

paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.11.2013 , 01:27 PM | #104
OFFTOPIC:
Quote: Originally Posted by manchusabre View Post
What? Have they never looked at the torparse leaderbard? There isn't a small gap. This probably why everyone is rolling a sniper/gunslinger now.
They balance the classes based on single target DPS. The closest players can parse to see this for themselves is on the dummy. See this thread they are really close http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980.

If you want to argue OPS DUMMY LOL DONT HIT BACK. Then what are you basing your claims from? Raid parses?

You do know that there is no way to balance DPS using an operation. Because... well.... unless you want fight the same bosses forever, there won't (and shouldn't) be the exact same boss fight.

Snipers will do LOLbital on adds and make them do more DPS. Same with Operatives
Arsenal Mercs will have a hard time on fights where you need to move a lot
Melee classes will have a hard time on fights with a lot of close proximity red reticles (go try 5 melee in NiM 16-man TITAN6 see how that goes for you).

So yeah check this out before people QQ based on the wrong facts.
Spoiler
Compare that to this http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic

Course they have yet to fix Assasins and maybe Madness, also Concealment Ops. They already buffed/changed Powertechs on the PTS. Overall they did a good job at keeping classes pretty close to each other. Also see the coming Sniper/Slinger NERFS on the sniper forums, or on the flashpoints forums, or a page 10 of this thread, or from my sig.

Here let me copy paste a fraction of what's coming when they force us to use 4-pc PVE and tie our Orbital set bonus to 4-pc PVP

BEFORE
1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3265.68
2. Evrydayimsmggln - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3238.05
3. Tianna - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3229.16
4. Red'october - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3207.38
5. Alishee - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3192.26

ADJUSTMENTS - wearing 4-pc pve (3 ticks of orbital INSTEAD OF 4 -from the about-to-be-removed-2-pc pvp bonus)
Spoiler


Original Orbital/Flyby DPS minus NEW Orbital/Flyby DPS
DPS nerfed by
1. 413 - 355 = 58 DPS
2. 350 - 271 = 79 DPS
3. 253 - 181 = 72 DPS
4. 337 - 253 = 84 DPS
5. 398 - 298 = 100 DPS


AFTER
1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3207 DPS
2. Evrydayimsmggln - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3159 DPS
3. Tianna - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3157 DPS
4. Red'october - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3123 DPS
5. Alishee - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3092 DPS
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
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Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
09.11.2013 , 02:26 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Luckeyduckey View Post
Remove the DoT on Shatter, and add the current DoT damage + Initial damage as it is now. Bam. Instant burst.
Which one has a chance to make more damage? A chance to crit one Shatter or multiple chances of criting few ticks?
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ArenCordial's Avatar


ArenCordial
09.11.2013 , 02:34 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
OFFTOPIC:

Course they have yet to fix Assasins and maybe Madness, also Concealment Ops. They already buffed/changed Powertechs on the PTS. Overall they did a good job at keeping classes pretty close to each other. Also see the coming Sniper/Slinger NERFS on the sniper forums, or on the flashpoints forums, or a page 10 of this thread, or from my sig.
Paowee, I think us with Snipers/Slingers are going to be ok. I took the comments by BioWare to mean they were unhappy that OS/XS were required for best single-target dps, not that they are unhappy with the damage Snipers/Slingers are doing. Im confident they are going to add DPS back into our single target rotations somewhere, while trying to make OS/XS just be the add killer they wanted it to be.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
09.11.2013 , 02:41 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
This.

What we need is more damage from the dots ,more direct damage from Shatter.OR a saber reflect with lower cd and more passive damage mitigation in Shien and Shi-Cho forms.

Enchance the class' strengths ,don't add unnecessary tools from other classes.
These tools(the root from Ravage) were designed to be part of the arsenal of an intirely different class and doesn't have any place here.Unstoppable + root from Ravage stinks of bad design.Even if it is not overpowered the mechanic is just not satisfying.
You're speaking as if the sole purpose of Unstoppable is to ensure full Ravage. It doesn't. The last tick (the one that actually hurts) is easily prevented. Unstoppable gives you breathing time to slow and debuff the target. If you use it for Ravage, you get what you deserve - knocked back with an unslowed opponent beyond your reach.
Right now, Vengeance doesn't have enough tools to keep the opponent in range, while having a high contact time requirement for the majority of its damage (while Smash has low to moderate contact time requirement, and has more tools to keep the enemy in their combat range). On a Gunnery Commando, I don't even have to blow Electronet to kite Vengeance successfully, and that's telling.

The point of Ravage-root is exactly that - buy you a couple more seconds of contact time, or lure out a gap-opener.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

paowee's Avatar


paowee
09.11.2013 , 04:52 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by ArenCordial View Post
Paowee, I think us with Snipers/Slingers are going to be ok. I took the comments by BioWare to mean they were unhappy that OS/XS were required for best single-target dps, not that they are unhappy with the damage Snipers/Slingers are doing. Im confident they are going to add DPS back into our single target rotations somewhere, while trying to make OS/XS just be the add killer they wanted it to be.
OH yes ofcourse Snipers/Slingers are going to be fine. My definition of "fine" is something like: "it doesn't matter whether you topped the charts or not. What matters is that the boss is dead". And honestly in live, any raid group can down any boss right now using a variety of class comps. That includes Vengeance and even Deception/Madness. Remember NiM Dread Guard Council before the nerf, the hardest fight this game has seen since the expansion came out, was first killed with a Vengeance Juggernaut. Honestly i do not know how people can still complain after seeing that. Maybe we have a L2P issue...?

That's why reducing the RNG factor of ravage procs (and compensating for the dps buff by lowering something else to keep the numbers to where they originally were) is the BEST thing that could happen to Vengeance. The numbers are there but what makes it a "L2P issue" is that this number is more difficult for the general populace to convert to actual raid DPS. On top of having to listen for ravage procs, watch shatter, impale and scream, prioritizing vicious throw procs and using ravage at the right times, the player also has to also watch for mechanics and dodge red reticles and try to catch up to Kephess because the boss runs too darn fast and you actually end up 10 meters behind him whenever you use Force Charge while the tank moves the boss from one pillar to another -_-
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
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g_land's Avatar


g_land
09.11.2013 , 05:21 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
.OR a saber reflect with lower cd and more passive damage mitigation in Shien and Shi-Cho forms.
LOL heavy armor users asking for more damage mitigation in their dps specs!
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ArenCordial's Avatar


ArenCordial
09.11.2013 , 05:51 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
OH yes ofcourse Snipers/Slingers are going to be fine. My definition of "fine" is something like: "it doesn't matter whether you topped the charts or not. What matters is that the boss is dead".
Well my definition for 'ok'' in this case is that I'm doubtful Slingers/Snipers are actually going to see a nerf. I figure we'll probably still be doing top tier dps with Marauders. The only thing I'm actually worried about is BW killing the Eng/Lethality hybrid. I don't think they really ever intended for a hybrid to work that well. Though I could be wrong. (I have both a Slinger and Sniper fyi and do elder content on the Slinger)

Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
And honestly in live, any raid group can down any boss right now using a variety of class comps. That includes Vengeance and even Deception/Madness. Remember NiM Dread Guard Council before the nerf, the hardest fight this game has seen since the expansion came out, was first killed with a Vengeance Juggernaut. Honestly i do not know how people can still complain after seeing that.
I don't really see anyone complaining about not being able to clear content. What people are worried about is being competitive enough to earn a spot to see said content. Assuming all things being equal who do you think an Ops leader would take in NiM content: A Merc or a Jugg? A Marauder or a Jugg? A Sniper or a Jugg? An Operative or a Jugg? Sorc or Jugg? I love the class something fierce but if I was the ops leader I'd go with whoever I think would be the most productive for the raid and in those cases it wouldn't be a Jugg.

Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
That's why reducing the RNG factor of ravage procs (and compensating for the dps buff by lowering something else to keep the numbers to where they originally were) is the BEST thing that could happen to Vengeance.
Not saying this is a bad thing, I've said its a zero sum game for the Jugg. However what I do not understand is why on a class that along with the Merc is probably the best for the DPS Leaderboards to see as close to actual potential dps numbers, why that ceiling needs to be reduced when the class is clearly not hitting it out of the park by the very best people who play the class. I think if you raised the ceiling 2-3% that would put Lou's record parse at 3100-3130. If people think that ridiculous, unreasonable, or overpowered then there are quite a few classes that need nerfs.

Lets look at this another way. I'm going to make up some numbers so bear with me. Lets say the avg 72 geared Veng Jugg does 2500. After the change lets say its 2.6K but the top parsers for the class are really only making around 2.9K. I'm supposed to think that's good? Sure on some level I'm glad more people are doing better but if the best are even less competitive than they currently are they will leave the class. Not all obviously but enough.

We'll need to see the changes first but basically saying you're going to less than what you were capable of before when your near the bottom of DPS Leaderboards for classes is hardly reason to get excited.


Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
The numbers are there but what makes it a "L2P issue" is that this number is more difficult for the general populace to convert to actual raid DPS. On top of having to listen for ravage procs, watch shatter, impale and scream, prioritizing vicious throw procs and using ravage at the right times, the player also has to also watch for mechanics and dodge red reticles and try to catch up to Kephess because the boss runs too darn fast and you actually end up 10 meters behind him whenever you use Force Charge while the tank moves the boss from one pillar to another -_-
Watching your procs, knowing the fights, and more importantly knowing when to use what is all very important. That's in the players control. What's more annoying is how often mechanics affect the ability to bring that damage. Usually its a melee thing but sometimes its a result of the spec being dependent on a 4m channel. Melee often get a lot more mechanics they have to deal with. A good bit of the disparity in actual raid numbers can be chalked up to this encounter design but until BW starts designing fights that penalize ranged more, downtime of melee needs to be considered.