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Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
09.05.2013 , 02:50 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You think? Windu and Sidious were equally matched, the other Jedi just got in the way.
Windu could barely react when the duel first began.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 02:50 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Windu could barely react when the duel first began.
That is true.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
09.05.2013 , 02:55 PM | #43
To be honest, mace windu destroyed the Jedi.

I mean come on:

Anakin: I believe chancellor palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for.

Windu: *Runs head first into a fight*

Now, if Windu had instead asked when Anakin found out, how he found out, why Palpatine let him know, how much power Anakin sensed from him etc.... If he realised this could be the end of thousands of people's lives, and checked Anakins shatter point (therefore knowing how Palpatine could Manipulate him, allowing him to convince skywalker not to chop his arm off)


I mean come on, every move he made, could have been made better.
I mean, at least warn the members of the council first, in case you just so happen to fail to kill the Sith Lord who's hidden himself from thousands of Jedi by hiding in front of their noses....
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Posted the prologue of fanfic Echoes.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 03:05 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
To be honest, mace windu destroyed the Jedi.

I mean come on:

Anakin: I believe chancellor palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for.

Windu: *Runs head first into a fight*

Now, if Windu had instead asked when Anakin found out, how he found out, why Palpatine let him know, how much power Anakin sensed from him etc.... If he realised this could be the end of thousands of people's lives, and checked Anakins shatter point (therefore knowing how Palpatine could Manipulate him, allowing him to convince skywalker not to chop his arm off)


I mean come on, every move he made, could have been made better.
I mean, at least warn the members of the council first, in case you just so happen to fail to kill the Sith Lord who's hidden himself from thousands of Jedi by hiding in front of their noses....
Actually their is more too it than that.

Windu knew of Darth Sidious, and he had strong reasons to believe that this Darth Sidious was controlling Palpatine. Those Jedi he just 'happened' to pick up were in fact already assembled with the intention of storming Palaptine's office once Grievous had been defeated and forcing him to renounce his emergency powers. Bringing a strike team in the instance that Sidious revealed himself. So when it was revealed that the Chancellor was the Sith Lord it was simply a case of reallocating priorities. And really, when their is a Sith Lord sitting at the head of government with massive amounts of power and at a galactic turning point, your fist thought is going to be to put him down as soon as possible.

Remember "I sens a plot to destroy the Jedi." Allowing Sidious to remain in power while the Jedi gathered could have been dangerous. And in reality it was, if Windu had decided to wait Sidious would have activatated Order 66 and the Jedi would have been slaughtered. Sure Yoda and Kenobi could have teamed up to take him down, but the Jedi are all dead. Was it worth it? Jedi Code says no
.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
09.05.2013 , 03:12 PM | #45
Point.... But I still think warning the council would have given them a fighting chance, and Taken Shak Ti, she was on coruscant after all.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Posted the prologue of fanfic Echoes.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 03:13 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
His swaying is referring to him collapsing to the floor, dead. Not him attacking. Though the film clearly shows that all Kolar does it raise his blade, and funnily enough it takes more time to cross a distance and raise one's blade to intercept an attack than to simply raise ones blade.

Also noting that Windu was likely recovering from surprise, and that again, Sidious' speed is force augmented. Even if this were not the case, Windu still would struggle to intercept that attack.
No, in the novel Tiin was the first one who got killed, Kolar didn't die when he swayed.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 03:18 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, in the novel Tiin was the first one who got killed, Kolar didn't die when he swayed.
Oh, my bad. But I'd point out that Aurbere is correct. Kolar swayed after Sidious impaled him in the head.

He says, "It doesn't hurt." The first part before the sway and the second part after. Kolar would only say this after suffering injury so we can only assume that he was impaled and then spoke, so the swaying was him indeed collapsing dead. Really I don't see how you can take the word 'swayed' and jump to the conclusion that he attempted to attack.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 03:26 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[COLOR=#CC9e42]You have it completely the wrong way round. Watch the fight again, and pause exactly at 0:48. Quite clearly we see Windu moving in-front of Sidious and Fisto moving behind him. In the next couple of seconds Sidious turns around (because he can manipulate the flow of the battle as he pleases) and takes out Fisto before whipping back around to deflect Windu's incoming attack. Windu is powerless to stop him. One could argue that if Fisto had been attacking from the sides he would have had a better chance, but against such a skilled opponent you don't have a choice in what direction you attack from, you move with the flow of the battle.
We clearly saw Windu moved back to Sidious, and Windu didn't follow Sidious when Sidious turns around.

Quote:
The Anakin and Kenobi example is not a good one, because alone Anakin was superior to Dooku and Kenobi a match for him. This scenario is different, Windu and Sidious are equals and the rest are simply eclipsed. As such teamwork will only get you so far, because if your opponent focuses on you even for a second - you are dead.
No, Anakin didn't surpass Dooku, he was able to defeat Dooku only because Dooku used too much Force power
to take down Obi Wan, even though, Dooku was able to turn off Anakin's anger with taunt, then Sidious joined it and taught Anakin to control his anger.

No, Maul and Savage is good example of teamwork. Was Sidious able to kill any of them in seconds? No.

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Now concerning Force speed, its pretty simple. Without Vaapad Windu just isn't as fast as Sidious, so there is no chance that he could have intercepted those attacks which in itself is a difficult task to perform. Sidious caught them of guard, and capitalised on that weakness through superior speed. This had nothing to do with tactics, but simply superior abilities, no matter what there tactics were, unless they were expecting such an attack, their is nothing that could be done. But again are you implying Windu is some kind of old, slow fool? Who just watched?
No, they knew Sidious is Sith, they already drew out their lightsabers and prepare to fight. Yes Windu didn't prepare good enough. Again, even Kolar was able to make a sway, why couldn't him? As long as he tries to face Sidious' power, Vaapad would give him enough power.

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Concerning Maul and Savage. I'd just point out that at least in my opinion, Maul is a better duelist than Fisto, Tinn and Kolar, and Savage is a more powerful Force user. Which places them in much better stead for taking him on. Savage wiped the floor with all Jedi he faced, including Jedi Council Member Adi Gallia, and Maul was skilled enough to compete with the likes of Vader and Dooku if given a chance. So yes, combined they are considerably stronger. The duel itself is clear evidence of this. Tactics alone won't help you against such a powerful opponent.
What are you talking about? Are you saying Maul+Savage>Fisto+Tiin+Kolar+Mace Windu? Because they didn't die so quickly like these 3 did. Even in 1 on 1, it took Sidious a few round to kill Savage.

Maul wasn't even able to defeat Jabba's guards easily, and even in 2V1, Obi Wan could cut off Savage's hand.

So the answer is obvious, they weren't ready.

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Regardless their are several differences and considerations that should be taken into account here:

1. Maul and Savage were ready, they were not caught off guard like the Jedi Strike Team, and therefore more able of withstanding Sidious' initial assault.
The Jedi were rdy, they knew Sidious is Sith, they knew it would be a big fight. It was they went to capture Sidious, Maul and Savage was caught in surprise because they didn't expect Sidious to come and hurt them.

Quote:
2. Maul and Savage have a great deal of experience fighting with each other and the former trained thelatter, much like Anakin and Kenobi. And like that pair capitalized on that strength with considerable effect against opponents such as Dooku, as Maul and Savage did against Sidious. Windu, Kolar, Tinn and Fisto have worked together in the past, but not against challenging opponents, and they don't share the master-apprentice bond.
The masters also fought many strong opponents, they also train with Yoda and Windu to test their skills.
You are admitting lack of team work.
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3. Sidious was toying with them. The determination and anger we see in Sidious' face when fighting the Jedi is not present when he fights Maul and Savage, instead he cackles and seems much more relaxed. He certainly starts fighting harder as the battle progresses, but every tiny advantage allows Maul and Savage to survive a little longer.
Sidious wasn't toying with them totally, he had to push away Maul to kill Savage, even when he was against the fully enraged Maul, he had to use Force Technique. He also cracked a lot against Yoda, so he didn't fight seriously? No.

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4. I feel the need to say this again, but don't underestimate Maul. He could likely take on two of the Jedi in said strike team and win, like he did against Kenobi and Jinn with ease. He took on Sidious one on one and put him on the backfoot, he even managed to score a hit. He is an exceptional, exceptional lightsaber duelist.
He was able to kill Qui Gon because Obi Wan was unable to get in due to the energy barrier, and Obi Wan was not even a knight at that time, only a padawan.

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Windu could certainly have picked a more skilled team of duelists i.e. Kenobi, Yoda etc. but if he had chosen duelists of the same caliber, but simply different skill sets - the outcome would have been very much the same.
That's clearly not the case since we see what happened to Maul and Savage.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
09.05.2013 , 03:30 PM | #49
Quote:
[He was able to kill Qui Gon because Obi Wan was unable to get in due to the energy barrier, and Obi Wan was not even a knight at that time, only a padawan.
Bahaha.

He got knighted a couple of weeks later, practically a knight when you compare it with how long he was a padawan.

Jinn was meant to be a match for Windu when he was in his prime (though Windu wasn't at his best when that comparison was made) and Kenobi was an Ataru master by knighthood.

Maul was not in a defensive style, yet held off 2 masters of an incredibly offensive style. He went 2v1 for a lot of the fight, and he beat them both in the duel. No matter what the ending was, maul beat Kenobi in the duel.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Posted the prologue of fanfic Echoes.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 03:36 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Bahaha.

He got knighted a couple of weeks later, practically a knight when you compare it with how long he was a padawan.

Jinn was meant to be a match for Windu when he was in his prime (though Windu wasn't at his best when that comparison was made) and Kenobi was an Ataru master by knighthood.

Maul was not in a defensive style, yet held off 2 masters of an incredibly offensive style. He went 2v1 for a lot of the fight, and he beat them both in the duel. No matter what the ending was, maul beat Kenobi in the duel.
Still he was not at a master's level.
Obi Wan was not a master at that time, you can see Qui Gon drew most of the fire from Maul, and how easily did Maul beat Obi Wan after Qui Gon went down.

TPM Obi Wan was much weaker compare to RotS Obi Wan, who was a master, skilled with both Ataru and Soresu.