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Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 10:05 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
No, his Vaapad could reflect Sidious' power, including strength and speed. At the same time the others would attack Sidious when Windu draw his focus. Windu didn't attack Sidious, he chose to dodge, thus gave Sidious the chance to kill Fisto.

It's not a one on one battle, it's teamwork.
And how exactly would Windu draw his focus? With a taunt? Sidious can attack whoever he likes whenever he likes, and he'll start by going with the weak links while simultaneously holding off. Noting Windu didn't move out of the way while Sidious took on Fisto, they took him on together, attack him from multiple angles, yet Fisto still died.

Now yes, Vaapad increases strength and speed, but only so it matches Sidious' power. Add defending other Jedi into that equation and suddenly Windu becomes more exposed. Just like Sidious became exposed when Windu 'forced' him onto the ledge, forcing Sidious to divert some of his energy to keep a footing.

Also taking into account that in the end, two would still have died to Sidious' Force speed. Which kinda throws teamwork out of the Windu (yes, that pun was intended.)

ImmortalLowlife's Avatar


ImmortalLowlife
09.05.2013 , 10:28 AM | #12
He should have brought jar jar with him to distract & annoy sidious....only then would he have succeeded lol.

Seriously tho, It wouldn't have mattered who he brought with him (with the exception of Yoda) he was doomed to fail. Between sidious' power & control of the dark side, & the ultimate wildcard of a very dangerous & emotional Anakin Skywalker. There wasn't much that could have changed the outcome.
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Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
09.05.2013 , 10:59 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And how exactly would Windu draw his focus? With a taunt? Sidious can attack whoever he likes whenever he likes, and he'll start by going with the weak links while simultaneously holding off. Noting Windu didn't move out of the way while Sidious took on Fisto, they took him on together, attack him from multiple angles, yet Fisto still died.

Now yes, Vaapad increases strength and speed, but only so it matches Sidious' power. Add defending other Jedi into that equation and suddenly Windu becomes more exposed. Just like Sidious became exposed when Windu 'forced' him onto the ledge, forcing Sidious to divert some of his energy to keep a footing.

Also taking into account that in the end, two would still have died to Sidious' Force speed. Which kinda throws teamwork out of the Windu (yes, that pun was intended.)
Windu will simply follow him, stick with him, and block his attack whenever, not dodge his attack to give him chance to kill others, which was exactly what happened in the video. Obi Wan and Anakin is a good example, Obi Wan used Soresu to defend Anakin from Dooku, meanwhile Anakin attack with Djem So's full power.

It does match, and do not forget there are others, if Palpatine tries to focus on Windu, the others will attack him from different angles so he could not extend his full power, that's what teamwork is.

The two got killed because Windu did nothing, he should pay attention and block the attack from Sidious when he was trying to kill the first two.

Niklarus's Avatar


Niklarus
09.05.2013 , 11:08 AM | #14
One thing that I think may have delayed the death of the first two for a while would be if they had confronted Palpatine in a more open space. Being in a room as small as his office really didn't help at all. If they'd had more room to spread out, then those two might not have died so qucikly. They still would have died because Palpatine was just that strong in the Dark Side, but maybe they or Mace or the other one might have been able to use the extra time to wound Palpatine a little and slow him down.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 11:17 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Windu will simply follow him, stick with him, and block his attack whenever, not dodge his attack to give him chance to kill others, which was exactly what happened in the video. Obi Wan and Anakin is a good example, Obi Wan used Soresu to defend Anakin from Dooku, meanwhile Anakin attack with Djem So's full power.

It does match, and do not forget there are others, if Palpatine tries to focus on Windu, the others will attack him from different angles so he could not extend his full power, that's what teamwork is.

The two got killed because Windu did nothing, he should pay attention and block the attack from Sidious when he was trying to kill the first two.
If your going to ignore the evidence in front of you then fine, but the fact remains that Sidious is perfectly capable of taking Windu and another highly skilled Jedi on simultaneously with little difficulty. Windu did not dodge or retreat, he was as stuck in that brief duel as Fisto was but he simply wasn't fast enough to fend off Sidious and defend Fisto at the same time. Vaapad only afforded him the ability to hold off Sidious alone.

Teamwork is all well and good, but when your teammates just can't keep up, it won't get you anywhere. And simply put Sidious was leagues ahead of any Jedi on the Council bar Yoda and Windu in terms of power and skill. Windu would have his hands full defending a bunch of novices (in comparison with Sidious) who would quickly fall as soon as Sidious applied some pressure. Not even that, Fisto was taking down with an off hand flourish as Sidious moved to intercept Windu's attack. There is nothing Windu could have done to prevent that, he can't be everywhere at once.

As for your final paragraph, that's just silly. You can't just say "oh well Windu should have done this" - he didn't, and know matter who those Jedi where, he wouldn't have in any situation. No amount of teamwork or tactics could have prepared him for the sheer speed and efficiency of Sidious attack. Even if Windu had attempted to defend them he would have been to late. He killed them in seconds, because they were all (Windu included) just too slow.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 11:20 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Niklarus View Post
One thing that I think may have delayed the death of the first two for a while would be if they had confronted Palpatine in a more open space. Being in a room as small as his office really didn't help at all. If they'd had more room to spread out, then those two might not have died so qucikly. They still would have died because Palpatine was just that strong in the Dark Side, but maybe they or Mace or the other one might have been able to use the extra time to wound Palpatine a little and slow him down.
I'm not sure it would have made a difference, the Jedi didn't even move or block his attacks, they weren't pushed back into a corner, they just stood their and died. The movie doesn't potray it all too well but just imagine Sidious moving at twice the speed and it makes more sense. It probably would have given Fisto a better chance however.

EDIT: The main issue here is that only Windu and Yoda are fast enough to clash blades with him. Any other Jedi is just too slow, so even if those Jedi had survived they would have been quickly cut down, the fight would have moved to fast for them. Though I do wonder how Kenobi would have fared...

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
09.05.2013 , 11:31 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I'm not sure it would have made a difference, the Jedi didn't even move or block his attacks, they weren't pushed back into a corner, they just stood their and died. The movie doesn't potray it all too well but just imagine Sidious moving at twice the speed and it makes more sense. It probably would have given Fisto a better chance however.

EDIT: The main issue here is that only Windu and Yoda are fast enough to clash blades with him. Any other Jedi is just too slow, so even if those Jedi had survived they would have been quickly cut down, the fight would have moved to fast for them. Though I do wonder how Kenobi would have fared...
Obi-Wan would have died just the same remember what Yoda said?

"Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin."

"To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."

So really yes...Yoda and Mace(with Vapaad) were the only ones able to fight against Sidious. The only other person I could see fighting against Sidious during the time, is Anakin and this is only because he is the Will of The Force in simple terms and thus destiny would have been able to seek victory....among also well he was pretty much very powerful anyway.
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Niklarus's Avatar


Niklarus
09.05.2013 , 11:56 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The only other person I could see fighting against Sidious during the time, is Anakin and this is only because he is the Will of The Force in simple terms and thus destiny would have been able to seek victory....among also well he was pretty much very powerful anyway.
Yeah, if Mace had taken Anakin with him instead of telling him to stay at the Temple, Palpatine would have had to come up with Corruption Plan B on the spot. He wouldn't have been able to play the "This is an assassination! They're trying to destroy democracy!" card in that case since the fight that Anakin showed up for the end of only broke out when he attacked the Jedi. With Anakin there as part of the Jedi team, Palpatine would've had to pull quite the rabbit out of his hat. If he'd attacked the Jedi like he did in the movie, Anakin would have gone full-bore into the fight on their side which would have ended any hope of turning the Chosen One to the Dark Side. Giving into his anger during the fight might still have caused Anakin to fall, but with him and Mace working together, there probably wouldn't have been a living Sith Lord left afterwards to teach him.

No, if Anakin had gone with the team, the Chancellor would need to improvise. And I'm just not devious enough to come up with a plan he could use that would have worked.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
09.05.2013 , 11:57 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Obi-Wan would have died just the same remember what Yoda said?

"Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin."

"To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."

So really yes...Yoda and Mace(with Vapaad) were the only ones able to fight against Sidious. The only other person I could see fighting against Sidious during the time, is Anakin and this is only because he is the Will of The Force in simple terms and thus destiny would have been able to seek victory....among also well he was pretty much very powerful anyway.
Well I don't expect that Kenobi would have one, but would he had died after a few seconds? Or would he have held out for a time?

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Wolfninjajedi
09.05.2013 , 12:14 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well I don't expect that Kenobi would have one, but would he had died after a few seconds? Or would he have held out for a time?
As you said yourself, compared to Sidious every other Jedi is but a Padawan. But...I could see him holding a little longer than Fisto at least provided Sidious wouldn't attack him first but then that isn't saying much lol.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
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