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Does Dodge actually work?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Does Dodge actually work?

Hobocrunch's Avatar


Hobocrunch
09.04.2013 , 01:32 AM | #1
I feel like it doesn't work at all. Now either I'm missing a mechanic and it's only good versus some attacks, or I'm literally dying to Gunslinger / Sniper charge shots whilst it's on.

If it is bugged, please fix it.

If it is not bugged, please make this skill more reliable.

Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
09.04.2013 , 02:08 AM | #2
Short answer to title, yes.
First of all it removes stuff like dots. Second of all, all white damage is dodged during 3 seconds (think it is 3).
Good example would be a scoundrel healer in pvp. You cast one heal and you have 3-4 guys hitting you. Use dodge and you live for another 3 seconds

Keep in mind it's short duration. It equals 2 GCDs (if it's 3 seconds). And you shouldn't use dodge when you have 10% hp left. Better use it when you know you are about to recieve a lot of damage.
The Red Eclipse
Republic Enforcers Suddenly Taken Over

Hobocrunch's Avatar


Hobocrunch
09.04.2013 , 02:20 AM | #3
Not to complain but white damage is minimal in this game since there's no auto attack. I'm honestly over hitting this skill just before a charge shot comes and then I still take massive damage.

Svii's Avatar


Svii
09.04.2013 , 02:32 AM | #4
The hardest hitting abilities are for the most part "white" damage, assuming we're talking PvP in no particular order:

Ravage and most of what a Carnage Marauder can throw at you
Deadly Throw
Assassinate/Maul
Unload
Basically all of Marksmanship, Cull (does not deal internal damage if the white part misses), SoS, Takedown etc

In short, I find Dodge/Evasion to be a great skill. I'm using the Enforcer 2-set bonus in PvP so it also lasts 4 seconds (5 secs in full Lethality!). You can also resist many debuffs that are attached to white abilities, like root from Force Charge and Low Slash.

It is very situational, so you need to learn when it's best to use and that depends on the class you're fighting.

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
09.04.2013 , 02:56 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Svii View Post
The hardest hitting abilities are for the most part "white" damage, .
Disagree.

Smash and Heatseeker are probably the two hardest-hitting abilities in the game, both yellow. And while Heatseeker's occasional, you'll be getting smashed a lot. Then pretty much all the sorc/sage abilities (inc Thundering Blast, another big-hitter), and for that matter op/sco, and all the pt/van burns. Plus most roots and dots are force or tech, which dodge does nothing about. Resilience (immune to yellow damage, Shadow ability) is better.
There will be blood, it might be yours;
So go kill someone - signed, Bad Horse

Ilmarinen 65 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Svii's Avatar


Svii
09.04.2013 , 03:30 AM | #6
Hence: "for the most part".. I'm fully aware of the tech/force heavy hitters, just pointing out how much white damage there really is flying around. Many seem to forget this because of SMASH!!

So Smash hits for about 8-9k and HSM up towards 9-10k, lets lets look at a few abilities if they crit:

(Disclaimer: only estimates)
Series of Shots in MM can do 9-14k
Ambush 8-9k
Cull easily 10k+ (remember that dodge can nullify Cull)
Takedown 6-8k
Deadly Throw 6-9k (?)
Procced Maul 8-9k, non proc 6k
Assassinate 6-7k

Most of these can also be used more frequently than even Smash. Good thing that there are Taunts and lots of defensive CDs to negate this madness, not to mention tanks that just laugh at you

Point is, Dodge/Evasion is a great but situational skill.. imagine the forum QQ if they changed it to also affect yellow damage.

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
09.04.2013 , 02:42 PM | #7
I like to check my combat logs and mess around with spreadsheets, so I feel like I have some evidence. I'll try and provide it (below).

This is from my combat logs in May 2013, so it's not the most recent possible. Also, I wasn't playing avidly that month and only took something like 20million damage, but it provides something to work with.

I created a macro that made damage done and taken a bit easier to read and analyse, and recorded everything that hti me (or I avoided, or killed me, etc).

Smash was the biggest hitter, and did the most overall damage (11.1% of all damage taken - there were 138 other abilities). They're all in there, along with the average hit. Note it's by tick so abilities like full auto that have multiple ticks, or Unload that also has smaller offhand hits, will tend to have an unrepresentatively low average damage. Also, abilities that have an initial hit and then a dot have the two effects separated.

I just spent a couple of hours adding the attack type and damage type to each ability, so I hope you're properly grateful

Top tens gives the ten biggest single-hitters, and the top ten by total damage done (lots of smaller ticks might add up to more). You can also see how often each killed me - Ambush didn't at all, for instance.

Backing up my case that yellow damage is more painful, the top four hitting abilities on me in May were all Force/Tech: Smash, Heatseeker Missiles, Thundering Blast and Hidden Strike (though all of 5 through 10 were Melee or Ranged).

More convincing, the top eight abilities by total damage done were all Force or Tech.

Also, 69% of total damage was Force or Tech, only 31% Ranged or Melee.

Partly, this will be because I was using Dodge to avoid them (I avoid c.25% of those attacks for whatever reason). But I don't think that is near enough to swing it the other way.

TL; DR: Yellow damage is the greater threat, both on most damaging abilities and total damage done.

Here's links to pics and the Excel summary if you want to check 'em out.

Top Tens pic
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-Fi...it?usp=sharing

May summary Excel
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-Fi...it?usp=sharing

May summary pic
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-Fi...it?usp=sharing
There will be blood, it might be yours;
So go kill someone - signed, Bad Horse

Ilmarinen 65 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Svii's Avatar


Svii
09.04.2013 , 04:04 PM | #8
Very interesting.. but, from the total damage category I see Energy is 43.8% total, this is all avoidable damage type by using Dodge/Evasion or just simply dodging it. I'm a bit tired, so probably not reading it all correctly.. Assassinate, Takedown and V.Throw are finishing moves and more likely to be a killing shot, perfect time to save that Dodge/Evasion. Ambush is rarely a killer, as a Sniper myself I use Ambush to set up a kill shot followed by Takedown++. It's more nuanced than what simple statistics (metrics) can tell us.

Nice stuff, you should do one of these every month or so!


Edit: I never argued tech/force was _not_ killer abilities, just that energy is not to be underestimated. There are many abilities Dodge/Evasion works against, that _will_ save your life. Much more interesting discussion IMO

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
09.05.2013 , 10:18 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Svii View Post
Very interesting.. but, from the total damage category I see Energy is 43.8% total, this is all avoidable damage type by using Dodge/Evasion or just simply dodging it. I'm a bit tired, so probably not reading it all correctly.. Assassinate, Takedown and V.Throw are finishing moves and more likely to be a killing shot, perfect time to save that Dodge/Evasion. Ambush is rarely a killer, as a Sniper myself I use Ambush to set up a kill shot followed by Takedown++. It's more nuanced than what simple statistics (metrics) can tell us.

Nice stuff, you should do one of these every month or so!


Edit: I never argued tech/force was _not_ killer abilities, just that energy is not to be underestimated. There are many abilities Dodge/Evasion works against, that _will_ save your life. Much more interesting discussion IMO
Energy is a damage type, and doesn't mean an attack is dodgeable, that's down to whther it's Ranged/Melee (white damage, Dodgeable) or Force/Tech (yellow, Dodge no effect). Though having said that, virtually all the dodgeable white damage is Energy based (weird physics where you can dodge light, but nvm...).

You're right that it's a very good idea to use Dodge when you think an execute ability like Vicious Throw or Takedown is coming. If you look up on the table, there's a "% hits kill" that tells how many of the hits on me killed me. Vicious throw is 36.6%, so over a third of the Vicious Throws that hit me killed me. At the same time though, you can see I avoided 23.4% of strikes from it, so I was dodging a lot of them (those poor, poor Sith Warriors, how frustrating for them... ).

Out of 245 deaths I had 30 were from Vicious Throw or Dispatch (mirror ability) - only 1 was from Ravage/Master Strike. According to the log, I avoided 25.8% of Ravage ticks - and I'll bet that most of those were the final, most painful ones. See Ravage start = automatically hit Dodge, take 2 free hits on Warrior while he finishes the channel. If Dodge is on cd, scamper the hell out of there.

I'm not saying Dodge is bad - it's the best defensive tool a Scoundrel has after Disappearing Act, and it can be very handy if you play it smart - but it's not as good as Resilience, and that's because yellow damage is more of a threat than white.

Looking at the file again, I noticed a lot of the aoe is yellow - Force or Tech - and that's another thing to cause us pain. Smugglers wear medium armour, and have no defences against all the stuff splattering around in the fight, which is particularly nasty for scrappers who are melee fighters. Also, when thinking about the applicability of the figues, it's worth remembering that they're for damage done to a scrapper, and one particular scrapper at that (maybe I have a weird individual playstyle? I don't think so, but how would I know?). They're a lot better than nothing, but keep potential pitfalls in mind.

I was actually keeping various stats up to date, but my play time on the scoundrel (and generally) tailed off after 2.0. Maybe in 2.4, if I decide I'm going to carry on with it. Not looking forward to arenas.

TY for the kind words though - if they're of interest to anyone else that's great.
There will be blood, it might be yours;
So go kill someone - signed, Bad Horse

Ilmarinen 65 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

psychoratte's Avatar


psychoratte
10.02.2013 , 09:17 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Disagree.
Plus most roots and dots are force or tech, which dodge does nothing about. Resilience (immune to yellow damage, Shadow ability) is better.
Dodge cleanses all dots from you