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Alternatives to the BW proposed Laze Target discussion c/o Angelsfluttershy

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Imperial Agent > Sniper
Alternatives to the BW proposed Laze Target discussion c/o Angelsfluttershy

paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.27.2013 , 05:06 PM | #1
What the title said.

Care of Angelsfluttershy.

Reference: page 13 post #124
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelFluttershy View Post
First off I'd like to say I'm not picking on Paowee or anyone else, just his above posts hold a theme that a few posters seem to be supporting.

I'm getting the feeling that some of the players are supporting the brainstormed change to Laze Target that the Devs threw out because they'd take anything over nothing. As Paowee said, they threw us a bone on a string and we're chasing it, but is that how we really want to treat this opportunity? The Devs answered our question about Laze Target and showed that they'd be open for altering the ability a bit to better fit its designed purpose, but many of you are acting like the whole combat team sat down and gave us an ultimatum. I'm sure whoever sat down and wrote that question put that out there just to show us something they could do with it, not something they would or wanted to do with it in the first place.

I would suggest we take advantage of this opportunity, not just stop here. The community team gave us the platform to ask questions, the combat team answered our questions with an open-ended response for us to retort, and now its up to us to continue the discussion. Why stop at a suggestion they just came up with to flesh out their answer? Why can't we have a developing conversation about the purpose of Laze Target and what alterations could make it fit its designed purpose better? We already know that class balancing won't be coming until 2.5-2.6, so we have a lot of time to hold a strong discussion that would help the ability develop into something we can all be very happy with.

Let's put in the extra effort the combat team is and continue the discussion so we can go back to them with some really great input. Not only could this improve Laze Target beyond what was initially suggested, but this would set a precedent for the future where more back and forth between the combat team and player community could take place. We've got nothing to lose here and everything to gain.
Quote: Originally Posted by Svii View Post
Great post by Angel, which are my thoughts but not able to articulate

Really appreciate how much time and effort Paowee spend to support the Sniper/Slinger community. Also, we have a great collection of level headed people in here. Kudos to you all!
I think the best way to go about this is to submit it alongside http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=674592. From experience they usually respond a week later.
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AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
08.27.2013 , 05:10 PM | #2
Formatting and Suggestion Parameters:

In order to have effective, easy to read suggestions, this post details the format and parameters of Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck suggestion submission. If you're interested in submitting your own suggestion for changing our offensive cooldown, please read the following before posting. Following this post will help me, you, and everyone else (including the devs).

Suggestion Parameters: While brainstorming ideas for your change to LazeTarget/Smuggler's Luck, please keep the following in mind:
  • Keep to the purpose of Laze Target: From how the combat team answered our top three questions for 8/2 and how the ability operates in PvP and PvE, we can infer the intended purpose of Laze Target:
    • The purpose of Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck is to offer extra burst, give an additional push when focusing a target in PvP, and increase a Sniper/Gunslinger's sustained damage in PvE with perfect play.(additional wording thanks to B-Dick, post #133 in the Sniper/Gunslinger Initiative thread)
    Before submitting your suggestion, please make sure that it fits the designed purpose of Laze Target. If it does not match the purpose, then it isn't Laze Target.
  • Do not re-purpose Laze Target: Keeping the above in mind, please do not try to re-purpose Laze Target in your suggestion. This ability already has a designed purpose and we are not looking to change that, we're only trying to improve Laze Target so it accomplishes its job reasonably.
  • Reasonableness in terms of Class Balance: Remember Sniper and Gunslingers, there are still 6 other classes and 14 other Advanced Classes in this game. While we want Laze Target to be a good cooldown worth its place on our quickbars, we don't want to upset the delicate balance that the combat team is trying to achieve/maintain. If your suggestion boosts the damage of Snipe as well as making it auto-crit, there has to be a drawback, like a longer cooldown. This process is give and take, don't expect the cookie jar to still be full after enjoying a few tasty treats.
  • Reasonableness in terms of Technical Implementation: Sadly, the sky isn't the limit when it comes to implementing changes to the game. While having Laze Target do five different things looks cool on paper, it could become a nightmare to implement with the possibility of causing more bugs, lowering game performance, and whatever else is susceptible to break. The Hero Engine isn't unbreakable, please be gentle with it.

Submission Format: Formatting will make your suggestion easy to follow, clear, and help me a ton in organization. For the purpose of fairness clarity, I require that all suggestions meet the following format and have all points listed here covered in your posted suggestion. If something little like Laze Target buff duration is left out, I'll assume you want to keep the default. However, if something important like the duration of the cooldown is absent from your post, I will not put it up in notable suggestions.

I will not post suggestions in the notable column that do not meet the format. This isn't me being picky, I want to ensure that I don't read a suggestion and post it without knowing the author's feelings (i.e. someone may be still brainstorming and drafting a suggestion and I take their rough draft and put it up instead of their final). Below is the format for which I'd like all submissions to be submitted in:

Quote:
Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion
  • Cooldown Duration: <How long will Laze Target be set on cooldown after activation?>
  • Buff Up-Time: <How long will the window of opportunity be to use Laze Target after being activated?>
  • Ability Description: <What will your Laze Target do? What abilities will it effect and how?>
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: <How does your Laze Target fill the ability's designed purpose? Why is this change necessary? Why is this change not too strong? Does this improve Laze Target for PvE and PvP?>
Example Submission using the current Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck:
Quote:
Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion
  • Cooldown Duration: 1 minute
  • Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  • Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Snipe by 100%
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Having an offensive cooldown with a minute cooldown duration offers much in the form of utility. A minute cooldown prevents this ability from being up too often in PvP, but usually allows it to be available when needed. It also regulates the sustained damage increased in PvE so that it doesn't create a large gap between other DPS classes.

    The auto-crit of Snipe will help to push well defended enemies into execute range in PvP. The critical itself will assist in bypassing some of a tank player's defenses. The cooldown can prove useful in PvE burst damage situations too. When used in conjunction with relics, adrenal, and Tactical Advantage it can help push through an Operation boss burn phase. However, the one guaranteed critical on Snipe every minute is very small DPS boost over the course of an Operation encounter. so it will create little to no DPS disparity between other DPS classes.
Thanks for reading, if you have any suggestions for the format or parameters for making the notable suggestions, please feel free to post in this thread and I'll get back to you ASAP! If you have any questions please see the FAQ below before asking me. Remember, this thread is also a discussion zone, so please don't hesitate to talk about suggestions with each other and refine your own ideas so we can come up with something awesome!

FAQ for "Formatting and Parameters" section:
Spoiler

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
08.27.2013 , 05:12 PM | #3
Notable Suggestions
Below are player suggestions for changes to Laze Target which are reasonable, well-written, and actively discussed by other players in this thread or its partner thread, [Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself.

Purpose: The purpose of this section is to help readers get a quick synopsis of the Sniper and Gunslinger communities' ideas without having to read every post in this thread.

Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by greg_biochem (aka Red'october); see post #8
  • Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 15 sec
  • Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  • Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next SoS / Cull channel by 100%
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Larger on-demand burst without an overall buff to sustained damage (doubt that would ever happen), and *relative* balance between specs. A Lazed SoS / Cull channel would do a bit more than double the damage of a Lazed Snipe, so the suggested cooldown is more than twice the current one.


Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Created by B-Dick and formatted by Angelfluttershy; see post #125, post #133 and post #135 in the Initiative thread
  • Cooldown Duration: 2-3 minutes
  • Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  • Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, Series of Shots, Explosive Probe, Takedown or Cull by 100% and makes it unable to be intercepted, avoided or mitigated by abilities that provide partial protection.
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: (Summarized by Angelfluttershy) Flexible, on-demand burst that benefits all specs. The sustained damage benefit will not be altered for PvE while a significant utility boost for PvP is gained in the form of ignoring a target's Guard. This will assist in picking off well-defended targets in PvP. The increased cooldown will also ensure that the ability isn't up too often to become overwhelming.


Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by Whojoo; see post #16
  • Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 30 seconds
  • Buff Up-Time: 10 seconds
  • Ability Description: Makes your next Ambush - Aimed shot usable out of cover and cast instantly.
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the change: The first thought is to add more damage during movement. Second thought to add a bit more on demand burst.
    Both PvP and PvE contain a lot of movement. But some times there's still that one add wandering or there is that one guy with low health. This way you can run around and use Ambush - Aimed shot without having to stop moving.
    It can also help with a burst. If you need to take down that add quickly, use SoS - SS followed by an instant Ambush - Aimed shot to finish the add.
    I can see it help for PvP too in the same way. People will probably think of some strong bursts.

    There needs to be one more addition though for balance sake. Recoil Control (Tier 5 in skill tree Marksmanship - Sharpshooter) needs a change. It needs to add the following line.
    In addition a debuff will be activated when Laze Target - Smuggler's Luck is active. This prevents Recoil Control from triggering.
    This will prevent a huge dps increase for Marksmanship - Sharpshooter.

    Summery:
    This will give each tree an on the move ability which they can combine for an increase in burst damage. The cooldown is long enough to keep it out of the actual rotation.
    Marksmanship - Sharpshooter can't use it in it's rotation due to the debuff Recoil Control will give. Only option is on the move or to burst down an add.
    Engineering - Saboteur could use it in their rotation. The cooldown however prevents it from adding a lot of dps.
    Lethality - Dirty Fighting and Hybrid Can use it on the run or to finish something off after the second Cull - Wounding Shots.

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by artikulieren; see post #26
  • Cooldown Duration: 1 minute and 30 seconds
  • Buff Up-Time: 20 seconds
  • Ability Description: Places 2 stacks of a non-cleansable debuff on target that reduce the energy cost of the next 2 Snipes on target by 5 and allows the 2 Snipes to be cast instantly and usuable only when out-of-cover(casting Snipe while in cover doesn't remove the debuff) The cool down timer begins when either;
    a) the 2 stacks are consumed or
    b) when the buff-up timer expires regardless of whether any Snipes were discharged.

    Also, the 2 Snipes this ability grants, ignore the global cool down and have an internal timer of 1 second between both shots, similar to how Shoulder Cannon works for PTs/VGs.

  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: In the time I've played my Sniper I haven't yearned for more burst. But it seems that that's one of our concerns. And while I find the present Laze Target rather lackluster, I would be hesitant to request for a massive improvement. Hence this suggestion. While perhaps lacking and flawed in ways I haven't considered. I believe it would improve both PvE and PvP.


Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by Angelfluttershy; see post #31
  • Cooldown Duration: 1min 30 seconds
  • Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  • Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Snipe by 100%.
    • When talent points are allocated into the Marksmanship tree, a talent also grants Laze Target the ability to make the next Snipe also deal an additional 55% more damage.
    • When talent points are allocated into the Engineering tree, a talent that also grants Laze Target the ability to make the next Snipe apply 3 stacks of Electrified Railgun and causes the Agent's next 4 physical effects to receive a 100% damage increase and have a 100% critical hit chance on the afflicted target (i.e. the next 4 ticks from Electrified Railgun will do 100% more damage and will be a critical hit for each tick on the target afflicted by Laze Target).
    • When talent points are allocated into the Lethality tree, a talent that also grants Laze Target the ability to cause the next Snipe to cull the target for XXX additional internal damage (this internal damage is identical to Cull's additional internal damage for one second plus 5% damage to the base internal damage) for each poison effect present on the target with a 100% critical hit chance (i.e. the Snipe and each culled damage attack has a 100% chance to critically hit the target).
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Augmenting the current effects of Laze Target to better suit each specialization will help to fill its purpose of offering extra burst while giving 36-point specializations more merit than Hybrids. This will also help to diversify gameplay style between the specializations making them play more uniquely.

    My goal with this suggestion is to prevent doubling the cooldown of Laze Target as I believe the shorter cooldown of this ability is what makes it useful and unique. Giving it only a bit more damage in exchange for a minimal cooldown increase should satisfy most parties.


Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by BetaKiller; see post #32
  • Cooldown Duration: 2-3 minutes
  • Buff Up-Time: 10 seconds
  • Ability Description: Laze Target places a Laze buff into self, next Ambush, Explosive Probe or Takedown consumes it. If Ambush consumes the buff, 2 stacks of Zeroing Shots are given to self. If Explosive Probe consumes it, a second Explosive Probe that deals 50% of the damage will be placed on the target. If Takedown consumes it, Takedown critical chance will increase to 100%.
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change:
    The critical hit mechanic although rewarding is very simple and sometimes deceiving. As of now Laze Target increases Snipe crit chance to 100% which sounds good and looks good but in the end rewards little for smart plays. Snipe is a weak hitting skill and lacks additional gameplay value to feel anything but a filler and Laze Target as a skill is hurt by this.

    The change proposed here is aimed at rewarding the player for choosing the right moment to use Laze Target. It will fill its purpose for both PvP and PvE and any spec will benefit. Burst will be possible as an opener with the 1.5s Ambush, the 150% Explosive Probe damage in 3 GCD or the auto-crit Takedown for finishing (or additional burst for Lethality). While improving the PvE sustained damage on skills that are important in each spec rotation. On a 5min battle MM would have a faster startup followed up by an EP or Takedown depending on boss health, Eng/Hybrid would have a gain in damage and energy regeneration since the second Probe would behave as a Probe applying Cluster Bombs while Lethality would have an increase in Takedown damage twice or thrice in the fight.

    On the technical side this seems doable since a buff consumed by a skill exists (FT), to change the behavior would be a conditional case in the program (possibly the most challenging part though) and a weaker version of Explosive Probe buff could be applied just like the weaker versions of Corrosive Dart/Grenade.
    Some points that do need discussion are the % damage of the second Explosive Probe, probably it needs to tone down to 30% given the extra regeneration another point is the 100% crit on Takedown, personally I would prefer an extra % on armor penetration like 30-50% it will act as a critical hit but not prone to surge stacking builds.


FAQ for "Notable Suggestions" section:
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.27.2013 , 05:17 PM | #4
Don't forget time/deadline! I think a week should be fine. The other thread was started 8/24 over the weekend. This one could go from now till Monday (hopefully) or Tuesday next week before i can submit it
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shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
08.27.2013 , 05:17 PM | #5
I think it would be nice if the change did something series of shots because it is a key part of every spec.

I would also like to thank Paowee for how much time and effort he has put into this class.

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
08.27.2013 , 06:07 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by shyroman View Post
I think it would be nice if the change did something series of shots because it is a key part of every spec.

I would also like to thank Paowee for how much time and effort he has put into this class.
Problem is that this is a level 10 talent, so having it effect a lvl 36 ability is kinda counter intuitive

tbh changing this would make lowbie pvp derp easy, nothin like a free 10k hit. But who cares about lowbies lol
CJuice Sandwich-lazy sage seer || Cmeat Sandwich- fat blind engi sniper
lil'cmeat Sandwich- it's a lil Cmeat! Gunslinger || Naked-snake- looks more like plissken, scoundrel
Laziness is a skill

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
08.27.2013 , 08:00 PM | #7
Updated my two moderation posts, the second one needs more updating but I have to close at work and start heading home. Expect to see it updated in a few hours.

greg_biochem's Avatar


greg_biochem
08.27.2013 , 09:28 PM | #8
Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion
  • Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 15 sec
  • Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  • Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next SoS / Cull channel by 100%
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Larger on-demand burst without an overall buff to sustained damage (doubt that would ever happen), and *relative* balance between specs. A Lazed SoS / Cull channel would do a bit more than double the damage of a Lazed Snipe, so the suggested cooldown is more than twice the current one.


In my opinion, there's no way Snipers are going to get a buff to sustained damage. So with any suggested change, I look for a way it could be balanced for spec equality and to avoid giving Snipers an overall buff.

According to these parses (each was in full 72 gear)...
... Lazed Snipe does about ~ 5.5 - 6k damage

Then...

An Ambush Crit does 8 - 9k damage (8.5 - 9.5k in MM)
A Takedown crit does 7 - 8k damage
An EP crit does ~ 7k damage (11 - 12k with crits to all 4 Cluster Bombs)
A SoS Channel with all crits does 11 - 12k damage (13 - 14k with MM surge talent)
A Cull Channel with all crits does 13 - 14k damage

... so ~ 1 min 20 sec CD (Ambush / Takedown / EP without cluster bombs) for balance?
Or ~ 2 min 15 sec CD (SoS / Cull / EP with cluster bombs) for balance?


One seems to benefit MM more than the other specs, the other benefits full Eng far less than the other specs. I voted in favor of the 'dev suggested' change in the other thread (my vote there still stands), but if it would be considered I would prefer the SoS / Cull suggestion - partly because full Eng already has Scatter Bombs.


Note: Not all attacks interact with armor the same way, so to figure out crit damage, I looked through my logs instead of simply multiplying the tooltip damage by 170%. Feel free to let me know if there is a more accurate way
Server: The Ebon Hawk
Red'october - Gunslinger

MasterJacer's Avatar


MasterJacer
08.27.2013 , 10:08 PM | #9
I pretty much agree with red'october here. I think though, that we should have:
Laze Target: 2.5 minute cool down

MM: Auto crit for all SoS hits

Engineering: EP crits, adds one scatter bomb

Lethality: Cull adds one bleed affect, or all it's hits crit. Whichever one. I also think to help kill Hybrid, they could make it where for Lethality instead of buffing cull it puts OS off cooldown, and makes it free.
Yttrunchach: Sniper - The Ebon Hawk - <Nemesis>

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
08.28.2013 , 01:17 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by greg_biochem View Post
Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion
  • Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 15 sec
  • Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  • Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next SoS / Cull channel by 100%
  • Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Larger on-demand burst without an overall buff to sustained damage (doubt that would ever happen), and *relative* balance between specs. A Lazed SoS / Cull channel would do a bit more than double the damage of a Lazed Snipe, so the suggested cooldown is more than twice the current one.


In my opinion, there's no way Snipers are going to get a buff to sustained damage. So with any suggested change, I look for a way it could be balanced for spec equality and to avoid giving Snipers an overall buff.

According to these parses (each was in full 72 gear)...
... Lazed Snipe does about ~ 5.5 - 6k damage

Then...

An Ambush Crit does 8 - 9k damage (8.5 - 9.5k in MM)
A Takedown crit does 7 - 8k damage
An EP crit does ~ 7k damage (11 - 12k with crits to all 4 Cluster Bombs)
A SoS Channel with all crits does 11 - 12k damage (13 - 14k with MM surge talent)
A Cull Channel with all crits does 13 - 14k damage

... so ~ 1 min 20 sec CD (Ambush / Takedown / EP without cluster bombs) for balance?
Or ~ 2 min 15 sec CD (SoS / Cull / EP with cluster bombs) for balance?


One seems to benefit MM more than the other specs, the other benefits full Eng far less than the other specs. I voted in favor of the 'dev suggested' change in the other thread (my vote there still stands), but if it would be considered I would prefer the SoS / Cull suggestion - partly because full Eng already has Scatter Bombs.


Note: Not all attacks interact with armor the same way, so to figure out crit damage, I looked through my logs instead of simply multiplying the tooltip damage by 170%. Feel free to let me know if there is a more accurate way
I agree with not buffing Laze Target's effect on sustained damage, it's unnecessary currently and could devalue some possible alterations. Thanks for throwing up some parsed numbers to back up your change, statistics are always appreciated here!

My only thought is the same as CJNJ's, Laze Target is a level 10 talent that would be effecting only level 30+ abilities with your suggestion. Would you think changing the level the talent is learned at to match the level Series of Shots is learned to be a fair trade for the new effect, or could it still apply to Snipe in addition to Series of Shots and Cull? Personally, I don't see moving the talent up 20+ levels to be a big issue, it was never crucial for leveling so the downside should be very minor.

Great suggestion though so I added it to the notables.
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterJacer View Post
I pretty much agree with red'october here. I think though, that we should have:
Laze Target: 2.5 minute cool down

MM: Auto crit for all SoS hits

Engineering: EP crits, adds one scatter bomb

Lethality: Cull adds one bleed affect, or all it's hits crit. Whichever one. I also think to help kill Hybrid, they could make it where for Lethality instead of buffing cull it puts OS off cooldown, and makes it free.
Would these effects be innate to Laze Target, or would you have to spec into the alterations within each tree? I'd imagine the latter as these effects being innate would vastly benefit the Lethality/Engineering build as it would be double-dipping (i.e. can use Laze Target to effect the right ability in the needed situation). Also, would the Scatter Bombs be auto-crits as well or just EP? If the Scatter Bombs auto-crit adding one additional bomb would be a bit overkill.

Putting Orbital Strike off cooldown and making it free would warrant a larger downside for the ability, the cooldown would have to be greater than three minutes for sure as you could have two OS's up back-to-back. This would be a huge sustained DPS and damage increase, and I don't think the negatives would outweigh the positives here.

EDIT: I also added B-Dick's suggestion from the initiative thread to the notable suggestions with my own formatting. If you'd like it changed in any way B-Dick, please let me know by sending your suggestion in the same format.