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QQ-free Class Balance Discussion Thread

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
QQ-free Class Balance Discussion Thread

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
08.28.2013 , 09:08 AM | #11
Just noticed this thread and thought I'd give the following 3 simple ideas:

1. Baseline egress to all trees
2. Turbulence/ThunderingBlast grants +25% defence for 6 seconds
3. Sever Force/CreepingTerror increases crit chance and surge of Force Mend by 25% for the duration

(2) would result in Telekinetic sages that are squishy as they are now until they've commenced their turret rotation; which is fair. Its not OP for PVE because of said squishiness. It's not OP for PVP because they can still be interrupted, knocked or otherwise shutdown, but have a meaningful chance to parry incoming damage. The duration of 6 secs means the sage can enjoy the added protection as long as he's casting his turret rotation.

(3) The extra surge for Force Mend will synchronise with the DOT heals from crits that this tree gets, capitalising on self-healing.
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Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
08.28.2013 , 11:51 AM | #12
From the other thread, food for thought

Each sorc spec has slight different needs.

Seer needs ability to act under pressure and a defensive CD. We also need scoundrels to be nerfed. I think seers could do with fixes like:
- The substitution of salvation with some sort of divine hymn ability OR a strong to buff seer only bubble
- 3 stacks innervate ininterruptable
- 15% damage reduction after bubble is destroyed by damage during roughly 10 secs
- Baseline slow application on force wave

Lightning is very stronk and needs QoL changes
- Egress
- Turbulence crit disconnected from DoT application
- DoT crits should fish a proc that makes dark infusion activate instantly (To actually heal to full)


Madness is troubled right. The problem is that madness is desinged as a DoT pressure spec with a casting option (force light spamz) to fish for procs. Think madness as a shadow priest. DoTs and fishing for procs with some hardcasts.

The concept is ok but the execution is flawed. While lightning is a legit class cannon (albeit with QoL problems but cannon nevertheless) madness has no cannon (pressure spec) while still being glass. Actually more glass than ever with the lack of root kb and bubble stun.

Pressure specs needs to have sustained dps (what madness HAS) but their main principle is to outlive and MELT the opponents (what madness HAS NOT).

Madness needs MELT POWER and SUSTAINABILITY to outlive.

MELT POWER can be achieved by improving creeping terror do to the same amount of damage in a shorter notice (akin of what they did with force crush) so it works legit like a shadow priest's devouring plague. To add more spice into the spec make creeping terror do extreme damage to targets who are affected by both affliction and crushing darkness.

SUSTAINABILITY can be achieved by giving them straight up dmg reduction (aka shadowform) or warlock-like cooldowns (shield wall). Madness could heal huge chunks of HP when the dots gets dispelled while doing damage to the dispeller and slowing the dispelled (all around dispel protection), or have a short "leech like" cooldown that siphons DoT damage into HP (heal to full lolz).
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dscount's Avatar


dscount
08.28.2013 , 12:05 PM | #13
I would suggest the following SIMPLE changes (BUFFS) to the class to address a LOT of the issues covered. Please note these are just SIMPLE fixes to address the HEALING for PVP/PVE issues. Plus clears up the off healing issues for DPS to be used more. This is just a "LIST" of options with no expectation that ALL of them would be implemented (That would be way OP and not good).

#1 Idea: Seeping Darkness - Simple CRIT fix. Triple the values to 3%, 6% and 9% Crit (Help resolve that issue the DEV Team has pointed out very quickly). This addresses all THREE SPEC's as well since it's on the first row and used by DPS as well Healing.

#2 Idea: Dark Mending - Healing Force Fix / Balance. I'd suggest two changes to this one. Double the values and make them apply to BOTH Dark Heal and Dark Infusion. Dark Heal is not used since it cost more force and heals half of what Dark Infusion provides. Give both 1 Second less cast and 8-10 force less used.

#3 Idea: Dark Heal - Mobility - Instant Cast w/less Force Cost. Why it costs MORE force than Dark Infusion and half the heal is very strange.

#4 Idea: Force Mending - Stackable and/or increase time. Right now it drops off shortly after cast and you can barely get the longest cast time. Stack Force Mending x3 and/or increase the timeline equal to 1-2 casts.

Other ideas to assist with OPTIONS:
  • HoT on Static Bubble - Keep the cost and heals instantly if burst (Usually is instantly).
  • Dark Mending - You spec into this to get the two "Healing" of Dark Heal and Dark Infusion abilities. DPS other 2 SPEC's don't get anything other than Unnatural Preservation unless they go Hybrid.

EDIT: Fixed the name Dark Heal / Dark Infusion
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Tyrias's Avatar


Tyrias
08.28.2013 , 12:08 PM | #14
I think that mechanics wise, madness just doesn't synergize with itself half as well as Lethality (and I'm referring to Operative Lethality as opposed to Sniper Lethality, because BioWare has stated that off-heals vs pure DPS is, in their opinion, an invalid comparison) in terms of PvP performance.

Infiltration Operative
  • Lethality has one less DoT, I'll give them that. However, Neither of them being on a cooldwon, DoT protection and the fact that one of them is also an AoE means far better all-round application.
  • Their resource management comes in the form of DoT crits, which free them up to keep mobile and be uninterruptedly topped up on resources.
  • They have Weakening blast, execution enhanced DoTs for low health opponents and Cull to really push single target damage for a meaningful kill.
  • For kiting (or staying in range of an opponent), their AoE DoT has a 6s snare component, their single target snare has a CD and Duration that match, Shiv grants a speed boost, their 4s stun likely has a 30s cooldown, their 8s daze is AoE AND instant-cast AND won't break from damage from their own DoTs. They also have exfiltrate to use on a more regular basis than force speed, because of their superior resource management. While the escape element can be blocked with an appropriate root/slow, it can still in turn proc free, instant case heals.
  • Finally, despite being a short-range class and having the compensatory stealth, medium armour and use of cover when needed, their actual DoT's and many other skills are still 30m ranged.

Madness Sorceror
  • Madness Does have three DoTs, although the cooldown on CD means you won't be spreading it, and you need to keep the root element of CT for kiting, so it'll also probably only be on one target, but even if not, two at most.
  • Force management relies on channeling a skill, preventing you from kiting and making your force regeneration vulnerable to interrupts, meaning a high likelihood of getting out of force in any lengthy encounter.
  • We can front some non-execute burst, but it relies on having a a wrath proc, our AoE and Recklessness CD sitting ready to use, and because of the way that AoE skills eat multiple charges of Recklessness, we have to get to extra careful of placement.
  • As for kiting tools, we have force speed on a 20s cd, though it's easily shut down by the plethora of roots. We have a short knockback with no snare attached, and a daze that needs casting and is open to interrupt, beyond which any of our DoTs will break it if currently applied. Our 4s stun has, at best, a 50s cooldown. While it has a longer range, that extra 6m is rarely needed as without it's previous 30m range, our primary use of stun is on a melee offender with their many ways to get quickly into melee range. Our single target snare has a duration half of it's cooldown, meaning 50% uptime at best. We have a 2s root attached to one of our DoTs, so you're either holding off on DoTing to save for the root, or using the root at the wrong time. Likewise with Mental alacrity. You "could" use it as a kiting tool, but then you're yet again losing burst potential because you're moving and not gaining from the alacrity boost/interrupt immunity.
  • Madness does at least get healing in a slow steady trickle from DoT crits, but between the current crit rating and prohibitive resource costs of spamming affliction, the odd 2% here or there will make a marginal difference when you're out of force.

Someone said it either earlier in this thread or in another I've read recently. The reason there is such a range of suggestions to help fix Sorcs is because there are so MANY flaws with the class, by direct comparison to others. If I were a Dev, I wouldn't even know where to begin making small tweaks to try and balance that without breaking things.
"If you've got a problem, stick a worm in it".

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
08.28.2013 , 01:35 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
From the other thread, food for thought

Each sorc spec has slight different needs.

Seer needs ability to act under pressure and a defensive CD. We also need scoundrels to be nerfed. I think seers could do with fixes like:
- The substitution of salvation with some sort of divine hymn ability OR a strong to buff seer only bubble
- 3 stacks innervate ininterruptable
- 15% damage reduction after bubble is destroyed by damage during roughly 10 secs
- Baseline slow application on force wave

Lightning is very stronk and needs QoL changes
- Egress
- Turbulence crit disconnected from DoT application
- DoT crits should fish a proc that makes dark infusion activate instantly (To actually heal to full)


Madness is troubled right. The problem is that madness is desinged as a DoT pressure spec with a casting option (force light spamz) to fish for procs. Think madness as a shadow priest. DoTs and fishing for procs with some hardcasts.

The concept is ok but the execution is flawed. While lightning is a legit class cannon (albeit with QoL problems but cannon nevertheless) madness has no cannon (pressure spec) while still being glass. Actually more glass than ever with the lack of root kb and bubble stun.

Pressure specs needs to have sustained dps (what madness HAS) but their main principle is to outlive and MELT the opponents (what madness HAS NOT).

Madness needs MELT POWER and SUSTAINABILITY to outlive.

MELT POWER can be achieved by improving creeping terror do to the same amount of damage in a shorter notice (akin of what they did with force crush) so it works legit like a shadow priest's devouring plague. To add more spice into the spec make creeping terror do extreme damage to targets who are affected by both affliction and crushing darkness.

SUSTAINABILITY can be achieved by giving them straight up dmg reduction (aka shadowform) or warlock-like cooldowns (shield wall). Madness could heal huge chunks of HP when the dots gets dispelled while doing damage to the dispeller and slowing the dispelled (all around dispel protection), or have a short "leech like" cooldown that siphons DoT damage into HP (heal to full lolz).
Lol give up Salvation? Are you mad?
Taking out Weaken Mind requirement dumbs down the class.
Instant DI would be very OP, but DH may be an option.

Agree with the rest.

Quote: Originally Posted by dscount View Post
#2 Idea: Dark Mending - Healing Force Fix / Balance. I'd suggest two changes to this one. Double the values and make them apply to BOTH Dark Heal and Dark Infusion. Dark Infusion is not used since it cost more force and heals half of what Dark Heal provides. Both have 1 Second less cast and 8 force less used.

#3 Idea: Dark Infusion - Mobility - Instant Cast w/less Force Cost. Why it costs MORE force than Dark Heal and half the heal is very strange.
You seem a bit confused there, DH is the small fast and mostly unused heal. DI is the main heal (2.5 cast)
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SEANeD's Avatar


SEANeD
08.28.2013 , 01:47 PM | #16
Sorry for wall of text....please read....especially if a dev, and although some of it is me complaining I think there are some valid points made.
Everything daney said I 99% agree with. Madness has so many problems and lightning just needs a few tweaks at best. If lightning is the burst spec, than what the **** is madness? The mobile spec? I play it bc its barely more of a group damage spec and I like the mobility, the possible burst if you play it right, kiting like a mofo, and the awesome pressure it puts on casting classes. Now what does that all mean? Although I hate comparing sorcs to snipers and mercs bc I want to be a different class not some sniper/merc with lightning, Snipers don't need to kite so my mobility is pointless unless its a trade off for something better. The pressure I can put on casting classes won't work with more than half of a good comp, the burst is terrible compared to any other dot class and can easily be removed with cleanse, and I won't even have enough force to do anything. Right now I literally use overload as part of my rotation bc it's free. Even if no one is on me I have to use it even if there is one nearby target just to get damage and not miss a beat. Thats sad if you ask me. And sorry to have to make a heal to full reference, but how am I supposed to heal to full when there is no force left and devs have no plans on reducing force costs. The 1 minor thing I disagree with is a great force reduction cost for any tradeoff in protection regarding static barrier. Take a duel with a great smash mara for example, you kite and root and cast etc, and the second they are within range a bubble needs to be up. You can't stop the smash, and our bubble is damaged right through and we take 4k damage. Without a bubble upwards of 10k. When taking big hits into consideration any percent off our bubble can't happen. So the devs now think the solution is to buff crit all together and help madness survive with our little bit of heals from dots. That won't help because sorcerers aren't tanks and we won't benefit from little heals over a short period of time. Reducing the cost by a lot and doing what psi said about a defensive cooldown being off gcd and still being able to fight with it could work by simply keeping static barrier off gcd and making it cheaper. The thing that needs to happen most of all is giving madness a definitive role. Lethality is a dot spec like madness, can't be leaped to, has single target burst with cull, dots can't be cleanses, and is a primary group damage dealer. So you have a ranged dps spec like madness, but lethality has better dots and can throw in strong burst when needed. I think the little bit of advantages madness has over this spec is pathetic in comparison. Next spec. Lightning and the reason it can wait to be buffed for a bit. Lightning on demand can put out better and more reliable single target burst than madness. Madness would need all dots 4 stacks of focal lightning and a lightning strike followed by force lightning to see a healthbar drop quick. So lightning is definitely the single target burst class. Does this mean madness is the group damage class? Nope. Lightning has chain lightning and comfortably stays over 400 force. This means if a force storm is needed it can be used on demand multiple times and you can go right back into rotation. So since I'm using overload as part of my rotation I don't get the chance to use force storm, which isn't buffed at all even though I'm a group damage dealer. So my death field is weaker than chain lightning and doesn't proc anything, and I'm down on force so I can't do ****. Dots slightly give me an edge in group damage, by a pathetic amount. Am I supposed to pass up on wrath procs which account for more than half my damage, just so I can stay around 100 force?. In almost every war zone, even ones where groups of players are split up like CW or AH, a good smash mara out damages a good carnage. If a lightning sorc is left free casting he can go through rotations easily blow **** up and when people stack he has 2 strong group damage options. If a madness sorc is left unfocused I can go throw my rotations and when I'm done I guess I'll just overload the air around me. So there are no definitve roles in madness like when lethality out damages concealment because its group damage, or AP out damaging pyro because pyro is the single target burst and AP has spamable blade for group damage, or smash out damaging carnage or vengeance in warzones, or Engineering the biggest joke of all which is group damage yet gets it's own category in parsing because it is so op. Thanks to those who actually read all this. Daney's questions ftw!
Seaney 55 Sorc Pot5
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dscount's Avatar


dscount
08.28.2013 , 02:45 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
You seem a bit confused there, DH is the small fast and mostly unused heal. DI is the main heal (2.5 cast)
Dang it.. You are correct. Trying to type the correct name w/o being logged in sucks.

Dark Heal - 60 Force / 3k-4k roughly (Faster Cast Heal - Cost more for almost half heal)
Dark Infusion - 51 Force / 5k-6k roughly (Slower Cast Heal - Less force and more heal)

I meant making Dark Heal the instant cast on the move. (Larger one should still be cast like Ops/Merc)
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usernamexists's Avatar


usernamexists
08.28.2013 , 05:03 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Solloby View Post
Perhaps an ability is needed that allows Sorcs to move while casting for a few seconds. It would have a reasonable cd, and allow Sorcs to keep doing their job while running from an enemy.

Because let's face it, Sorcs can't facetank, they are the weakest class in the game when it comes to dealing with incoming damage. But if a lightning Sorc is constantly on the move to avoid facetanking, he's not dpsing and is basically self-cced. This would also help madness/hybrid and corruption Sorcs to heal themselves while kiting.

Unsure how healer Sorcs are feeling in PVE, I assume adding mobility to them isn't going to help if their main issue is force management though.

I also wouldn't mind if Force Speed removed and/or was immune to slows/snares.
I hope no one thinks i'm being negative but i don't think they are likely to change our mobility. madness can kite (healing while kiting sounds nice but i think is a bit op) healer and lightning can rotate, move rotate. Lightning also has a range extender in its tree. I wish they would change it though, When our force lightning doesn't tic dbl speed and chain lightning doesn't instacast we are more than sitting ducks
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Solloby's Avatar


Solloby
08.28.2013 , 05:34 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by usernamexists View Post
I hope no one thinks i'm being negative but i don't think they are likely to change our mobility. madness can kite (healing while kiting sounds nice but i think is a bit op) healer and lightning can rotate, move rotate. Lightning also has a range extender in its tree. I wish they would change it though, When our force lightning doesn't tic dbl speed and chain lightning doesn't instacast we are more than sitting ducks
I only suggested it because I assumed that's what the devs wanted for Sorcs - the comments about Sorcs being able to heal implies they think we can pull heals off in PVP when being focused in a 1v1 situation, which in most cases is untrue. The heals don't outheal damage being taken by a long shot (even if you stun to get an extra Dark Heal off), the heals are interrupted and you have to stand still and facetank while casting them. But Sorcs can't facetank.

If they aren't going to buff our defenses to help our survivability, what are they going to give us to make us desirable for arenas and ops? Because right now I can't see any reason to take a Sorc into an arena over a similar geared, similar skilled Operative (heals) or Sniper/Marauder/Jugg etc (dps) because they take a lot more damage and don't really have anything to offer that balances that out.

Yes a DPS Sorc can heal, but he will be healing himself instead of DPSing, whereas a Sniper/Mara will be using that time to DPS and won't need as many heals from the healer either. Sorcs can bubble but it is an expensive spell and it bursts quickly in PVP - Snipers have the shield so they provide similar utility anyway.

I would've just liked some sort of defensive cooldown tbh. Operatives have medium armour, shield probe, evasion, stealth, combat stealth and heals. Sorcs only have bubble, the self-CCing force barrier and heals unless I've forgotten anything. Would giving them something else really be unbalancing things?