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Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

DarkIntelligence's Avatar


DarkIntelligence
08.29.2013 , 11:46 AM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowcaper View Post
I'd like to start by saying that I personally like sorcs as they are, because while they deal less single-target damage they can be devastating against groups. I play primarily PVE, but I have been known to do PVP from time to time and found that my assassin is much more effective, with similar gear (even slightly less powerful) at a similar level. In PVE my assassin (lvl 51, gear ranked 146) regularly deals 5k damage with a single hit, whereas my sorc (lvl 55, gear ranked 146, fully outfitted with MK6 Willpower augments) deals closer to 3k to individual targets, but with Force Storm and Chain Lightning she clears whole groups in about the same amount of time as the assassin. My point is that sorcs are good for area dps and should be used as such, whereas assassins ands snipers focus on 1 enemy at a time and so should have more direct damage per hit.

However, while reading this thread (yes, I did read the whole thing) I noticed 2 counter-arguments which really need to be addressed:

1: The ability to heal provides survivability that other classes don't have. Meh, yes and no. Several months ago, sorcs and sages were given an instant self-heal, which definitely helped sort out some balance issues, so I'm happy about that. It's a good panic ability that can restore a bit more health than an equivalent-level medpack. But that's the only healing ability that a dps sorc/sage should ever use, because if you're being attacked and you cast a healing ability with a casting time, the base casting time + pushback means that over the course of casting you will take more damage than you eventually heal when you finally finish casting. How is that in any way helpful? Yes, you can raise a Static Barrier, but in endgame content that would last about as long as a single casting of a healing ability, then with the 20-second lockout you take 3 times as much damage before you can create another Static Barrier. Again... not helpful.

2: Sorcs have more range than other classes, so shouldn't be hit. Uh... no. Sorc attacks have a range of 30 metres. Snipers have 35, and more damage, so a skilled sniper can take out a sorce before he's even in range to fight back. Other classes can also hit from a long way away: Knights and Warriors have Force Leap to close the distance; Troopers/Bounty Hunters have pistols with a range of 30 metres; Assassins/Shadows have stealth and Force Speed, so they can close the distance before the Sorc/Sage even knows what's happening; only Ops/Scoundrels might have trouble getting close enough to a Sorc/Sage to fight them.

So, once again, I like sorcs as they are, but I wouldn't be unhappy to see their direct damage output increase slightly. And if people are going to argue as to why a certain class shouldn't be buffed, they should really come up with something better than "it would make them godly" unless that really is the case (giving Sorcs the ability to deal 7k damage per second for 5 seconds over an area of 60 metres, for example )
I agree with all of your points, sorcerers do indeed have incredible AoE potential, I would even go as far as saying lightning sorcerers have the best AoE potential. That being said, however, when it comes to endgame in both PvE and PvP it's all about the single target potential. In PvE that's obvious, you have to kill a boss, a single target, now there are several encounters with multiple bosses but as you know all of those have to be killed one at a time because of mechanics (mainly once you kill one the others heal to full, ohhhh see what I did there!). Same holds true for PvP. The fact is you have to kill players one at a time, focusing the right target at the right time. You are never going to get the other team to stand in your AoE for a long enough time, unless they can simply out heal it which renders the whole point of you doing it in the first place moot. So yeah its all about the single target DPS in endgame.
The Dark Side of the Force is my only master, the search for power, my only quest.
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AGSThomas's Avatar


AGSThomas
08.29.2013 , 12:41 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by MillionsKNives View Post
In that case I would like to claim that Assassin tanks make great DPS. I've personally kept up and beat a marauder on an entire Ops run on damage. Same gear level too (yes I was in tank gear, not DPS).

For some reason though I feel that his severe lacking of skill had something to do with it more than the Assassin tank's ability to DPS.
Except in my example they are guildmates and I know both are exceptional at their class.
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MillionsKNives's Avatar


MillionsKNives
08.29.2013 , 12:47 PM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by AGSThomas View Post
Except in my example they are guildmates and I know both are exceptional at their class.
You're still not controlling for skill, which was my point. They might both be good players, but that doesn't mean that the sorc isn't playing much better than the marauder, and they only look equal because of how easy it is to push high numbers on a marauder.

AGSThomas's Avatar


AGSThomas
08.29.2013 , 01:15 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by MillionsKNives View Post
You're still not controlling for skill, which was my point. They might both be good players, but that doesn't mean that the sorc isn't playing much better than the marauder, and they only look equal because of how easy it is to push high numbers on a marauder.
For whatever little it is worth, trust me as someone that has cleared all content since launch (up until this patch with a Sin MT) In that, Both the Marauder and the Sorc are equal in skill and knowledge of their class. The Marauder is actually our raid leader. I wouldn't be saying it if it weren't true, theres no point since Devs don't read these forums anyway.
Medïvh - Deception Assassin (PvP DPS)
Dïomedes - Vengeance Juggernaut (PvP DPS)
Server: 5 Prophecies

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
08.29.2013 , 02:23 PM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkIntelligence View Post
I agree with all of your points, sorcerers do indeed have incredible AoE potential, I would even go as far as saying lightning sorcerers have the best AoE potential. That being said, however, when it comes to endgame in both PvE and PvP it's all about the single target potential. In PvE that's obvious, you have to kill a boss, a single target, now there are several encounters with multiple bosses but as you know all of those have to be killed one at a time because of mechanics (mainly once you kill one the others heal to full, ohhhh see what I did there!). Same holds true for PvP. The fact is you have to kill players one at a time, focusing the right target at the right time. You are never going to get the other team to stand in your AoE for a long enough time, unless they can simply out heal it which renders the whole point of you doing it in the first place moot. So yeah its all about the single target DPS in endgame.
Good post! I completely agree!
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mmjarec's Avatar


mmjarec
08.29.2013 , 02:38 PM | #146
If you think sorcs are underwhelming and are middle of the road on a parse what does that say about the handful of classes below sorcs and wouldnt it make more sense to work from the bottom up fixing the worst classes instead of thinking you should jump to front of the line even though others are worse. I think im right, stupid sir

DarkIntelligence's Avatar


DarkIntelligence
08.29.2013 , 03:02 PM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by mmjarec View Post
If you think sorcs are underwhelming and are middle of the road on a parse what does that say about the handful of classes below sorcs and wouldnt it make more sense to work from the bottom up fixing the worst classes instead of thinking you should jump to front of the line even though others are worse. I think im right, stupid sir
I have no problem with fixing all the DPS classes! My whole argument hinges precisely on the fact that all DPS classes should be able to deal a simular amount of damage across the board, again within a reasonable margin of 5%-10% accounting for skill and various other factors. The only reason I am talking from a sorcerer perspective is because I PLAY AS A SORCERER, allowing me to speak from experience and a degree of knowledge I do not have with other classes and cannot speak to their particular strengths and weakness as well as I can with sorcerers. How do you not get that after over a hundred and fifty posts... /facepalm
The Dark Side of the Force is my only master, the search for power, my only quest.
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Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
08.29.2013 , 03:07 PM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by g_land View Post
http://www.torparse.com/statistics

Check any fight on torparse and tell me that with equal skills and gear that is the norm. Just cause you saw it happen in your raid group does not mean its the norm.
Random boss I ended with Titan 6

Only one sage in the top 20 but still that is a skill thing if one can make it so can others right?

Top DPS was a scoundrel, so no healer tax can be argued there. I think the "healer tax" or "hybrid tax" is completely the wrong line to take because after looking at all the boss fights scoundrels show up with regularity in the top spots. Sages are also always represented in the top 20. So where is this "healer tax"?


Commandos.....not a one in the top 50
Shadows.....nope not in the top 50

The sages who argue they lack competitive DPS might have it wrong, maybe it is a more challenging class to master, that seems to be an argument you can make from the data. But the potential seems to be there.

Now commandos and shadows that want to argue they need a buff seem to have an argument. Even guardians who hit the top 20 only infrequently and usually way towards the bottoms of it.


Should sages be more challenging to master as DPS, well that I might be ok with. It's a flexible class for that flexibility specialization in a field takes more skill but as long as it has a competitive potential are we all ok with that?


I think it is time we end the falsehood that this is about a healer tax, clearly scoundrels destroy that argument, they parse at the very top almost always. This thread really seems to be about sages wanting more DPS, or maybe easier DPS. Be honest look at the data, end the healer tax talk and speak plainly. What is this all really about?

mmjarec's Avatar


mmjarec
08.29.2013 , 03:08 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkIntelligence View Post
I have no problem with fixing all the DPS classes! My whole argument hinges precisely on the fact that all DPS classes should be able to deal a simular amount of damage across the board, again within a reasonable margin of 5%-10% accounting for skill and various other factors. The only reason I am talking from a sorcerer perspective is because I PLAY AS A SORCERER, allowing me to speak from experience and a degree of knowledge I do not have with other classes and cannot speak to their particular strengths and weakness as well as I can with sorcerers. How do you not get that after over a hundred and fifty posts... /facepalm
Ideally you would want no more than 10 percent dps disparity but then run the risk of all classes beig hmogenous they could fix this by making to dps delivery systems vast and versatile but their class designers would have to have a level of crativity that i dont think they have. Face it not every dev team is going to get top notch devs

Eitetsu's Avatar


Eitetsu
08.29.2013 , 04:13 PM | #150
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkIntelligence View Post
...now there are several encounters with multiple bosses but as you know all of those have to be killed one at a time because of mechanics (mainly once you kill one the others heal to full, ohhhh see what I did there!).
Well-played, sir.

I'm currently leveling a sorc myself (lvl 40 currently), and definitely I can agree that their AOE is really strong. But their single-target potential is also quite amazing and competitive with other classes (top parses being 2850+).

This is of course all PvE stuff, though. As far as that goes, Sorcs are fine. They fill their role in the raid quite well. The discussion is primarily concerned with Sorc performance in PvP, as I pointed out earlier. And PvP is an entirely different matter.