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An Answer: Why Rated 8v8 is going away

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
An Answer: Why Rated 8v8 is going away

Carter_Mathis's Avatar


Carter_Mathis
08.27.2013 , 01:43 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
How many people do you think are running nightmare mode 16 man operations?

Let's get rid of them.
No one QQ's that Scamper, Bubble Stun, or good dps break NiM Raids
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kc_caine's Avatar


kc_caine
08.27.2013 , 03:51 PM | #12
Behold, I will reveal unto you the one true reason why 8 v 8 ranked is going away at this time. And I assure you, it is far more mundane than you want it to be.

What's the largest group size you can queue for regs? 4.
What's the largest group size you can queue for reg arenas? 4.
What's the largest group size you can queue for ranked WZs? 8.
What's the largest group size you can queue for ranked arenas? 4.

To implement ranked arenas and 8 v 8 ranked warzones, the queue system would have to be partially re-written. If you're in an 8 man, should you only be queued for warzones or should you be split into two fours for arenas? If you're in a four man, should you only be queued for arenas, or should you be queued to pug warzones as well? The system, as it stands today, wouldn't know what to do with an 8 person group.

So, a decision must be made. Does the queue system get re-written to accommodate these discrepancies or not? Given the low percentage of people that play ranked 8 v 8 warzones, (less than 2 or 3% if I recall the dev post correctly), it simply doesn't make sense to invest the effort.

Simple cost/benefit. That's all there is to it.

Please note, I'm neither condoning nor condemning the decision. Just making an observation.

supermouthcml's Avatar


supermouthcml
08.27.2013 , 04:37 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
Nowhere near I think.
It's more like 2-6 teams per server except Pot5 that play on a consistent basis. Some might not have them at all, because you can't play ranked with just 1 team. IDK how populated are the EU servers and if all of the RP and PvE ones even have such teams.

And they spend very little time in these RWZ, compared to PvE guilds grinding through NiM ops for hours on end.
The reason they want no 8v8 RWZ was already stated, they want all ranked in one place so that it would actually happen without pre-Q'd matches.
lol you really dont think over 1600 players do ranked games across 2 continents, keep in mind that who is playing ranked is not always broadcasted like it is with some of the top guilds. And based on his numbers thats less than 1% so ya, its safe to estimate that about 1600 people play ranked.
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Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
08.27.2013 , 05:36 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by supermouthcml View Post
lol you really dont think over 1600 players do ranked games across 2 continents,
Not a chance.
1600 players is 200 teams... and there isn't anywhere near that.
Pot5 probably represents, less than a half of the total Ranked populace, but a third or so, quite likely.

Quote: Originally Posted by supermouthcml View Post
keep in mind that who is playing ranked is not always broadcasted like it is with some of the top guilds.
There is a way to know if someone plays ranked: they will have a "highest team rating" on their character sheet.

Checking the Fleet at peak times - and PvPers live on the Fleet - on regular servers will identify at best a few players that were ever rated. The number of those who still actively play ranked is much smaller.
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Captainejo's Avatar


Captainejo
08.27.2013 , 06:12 PM | #15
My math was soo forgiving you're missing that I am being so unduly giving that many people play. if 1600 people play and the whole population of players was only 200k were still talking, essentially nobody playing ranked.

Point: Ranked is dead as far as the numbers that Devs look at, so a 'big change' really isnt a big change since >1% of the entire sub player base is actually playing ranked.

Point: removing it from the 8v8 from the system will piss off such a minority in terms of ppl who actually do it they dont see it as a big loss from a numbers standpoint.

I for one think its a good thing to have in the game because, as it seems by reading all the info so far, there will be no access for guilds to partake in 8v8, which is the closest thing to OPs for PvP'ers. Its similar to only limiting PvE to Flashpoints from a social standpoint. What is the point of having a 'large guild' that is PvP only?? there isn't even the opportunity to do anything in a large group.

Also couple of good points so far:
1) 4man premades queing in regular arenas are gonna be stupid upsetting to the 'casual playerbase'. LMAO at watching the top guilds rollface in regs to do their daily grinds and just stop face for fun, if that isn't griefing in its truest sense what is?
2) The why they are removing the problems with scripting the queing system of 8v8ranked is solid; but if they could just allow 8v8 ranked or unranked it would be pretty awesome. Imagine this: Guild A trash talks Guild B, 8v8 still exists with no ranking or anything attached, just the ability to que only an 8 person Op group vs 8 person op group; it would be similar to the Group Finder in terms of that it is essentially dead for anyone but preformed OP groups queing, that would allow some mechanic in the game for Guild A to go against Guild B in a 'battle royal' type thing. No need for any incentives or anything, just since the mechanic is there leave it there, keep that >1% happy. If 2.4 drops with the said changes, they are non-incentivising large guilds other than to have XP bonuses for PvP'ers.
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Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
08.27.2013 , 06:46 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Captainejo View Post
Point: Ranked is dead as far as the numbers that Devs look at, so a 'big change' really isnt a big change since >1% of the entire sub player base is actually playing ranked.
And again, removing NiM 16 man would piss off only a minority as well. Let's do that. I think we can all agree that replacing 16 man ops with new simplified SM/HM 4 and 8 man content would increase FP/OP participation, and heck, who needs hardcore PVE raid guilds anyway?



Anyone care to guess what the chances are of BW annoying their precious raiders?
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SEANeD's Avatar


SEANeD
08.28.2013 , 06:21 AM | #17
Firstly regarding a code having to be rewritten, even if it was to hard for people who can make entire games to incorporate 8v8 ranked queue and rating along with ranked arenas, almost everyone in the "8v8 or arenas" forum has said they prefer 8v8 to arenas. So if it would come down to only having regs arenas and 8v8 ranked vice versa most people would want to keep the 8v8. Secondly a player from tofn has already provided a spreadsheet with over 20 teams he has played since 2.0. That prob does't include teams rebuilding or pugs and since 2.0 pot5 as prob had about that maybe upwards of 30 even, and my old pve server even has about 8 teams that queue once a week. Thirdly it would take a simple ranked weekly as an incentive to queue. If there was a reward such as 500k credits for 4 ranked wins in a week, you would easily see a quarter of the pvp population in queue, and guilds with backups to backups for their core team would see splits and there would be more teams. So besides a coding problem which is highly unlikely anyone have a good reason going out of the way to take 8v8 ranked is better than leaving as is along side ranked arenas? And if the number of people playing is a valid reason to quit, maybe we can buff rewards for pvpers like a ranked weekly so we can take out two of the most popular common sense pvp problem threads in one shot.
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Gnoblesse's Avatar


Gnoblesse
08.28.2013 , 07:10 AM | #18
Here's the thing; at the last Community Cantina, I believe they said that they were afraid having two separate ranked queues would starve both. But....if so few people were doing ranked 8v8 - either it's a mathematically insignificant number of people or it isn't. It can't be both "it will take too many people out of arena queues" and "hardly anyone will do them at all" at the same time. If the number of people who are/would be doing them is that small - it also shouldn't have that big of an impact on how many people are queuing for ranked arenas.

Given that in order for the ranked arenas to be healthy, you're going to want to have a substantial number of arena teams to be queuing and continue queuing - it seems to me that giving the hardcore-est of the hardcore something else to queue for when they can would be in the best interest of everyone. Otherwise, I fear we'll end up with the same situation as ranked 8v8 - a bunch of teams queuing for arenas at first, getting their butts handed to them before they even have a chance to get a rating for the matchmaking system to work, and getting discouraged and quitting.

Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
08.28.2013 , 07:59 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Gnoblesse View Post
Given that in order for the ranked arenas to be healthy, you're going to want to have a substantial number of arena teams to be queuing and continue queuing - it seems to me that giving the hardcore-est of the hardcore something else to queue for when they can would be in the best interest of everyone.
But that would be Arenas, not warzones.
It was the PvP community that made an implicit agreement that Voidstar matches would be straight 15 minutes of TDM instead of door play. That kept asking for arenas.

You'll always hear more complaints than praise on the forums, because 1) people don't like change, 2) people who do like change have nothing to write about, nothing to gain by writing about it.

The problem with 8v8 and the strongest barrier to entry has always been logistics, not skill. Plenty of people would've been happy losing these matches 75% of the time (all except another such team) if they still got to farm their ranked commendations for EWH or Conq gear... except you couldn't actually get a RWZ without a team to pre-queue against.
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JediMasterSLC's Avatar


JediMasterSLC
08.28.2013 , 09:13 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Gnoblesse View Post
Here's the thing; at the last Community Cantina, I believe they said that they were afraid having two separate ranked queues would starve both. But....if so few people were doing ranked 8v8 - either it's a mathematically insignificant number of people or it isn't. It can't be both "it will take too many people out of arena queues" and "hardly anyone will do them at all" at the same time. If the number of people who are/would be doing them is that small - it also shouldn't have that big of an impact on how many people are queuing for ranked arenas.
This. Either way, removing it is a bad decision.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
And again, removing NiM 16 man would piss off only a minority as well. Let's do that. I think we can all agree that replacing 16 man ops with new simplified SM/HM 4 and 8 man content would increase FP/OP participation, and heck, who needs hardcore PVE raid guilds anyway?



Anyone care to guess what the chances are of BW annoying their precious raiders?
Yeah, I really don't think there's a good rebuttal to this argument. 16 man NiM is just as exclusive/hard to put together as RWZs.... but I guess it's pretty obvious that BW's hardcore PVE sensibilities >>>> their hardcore PVP concerns.
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