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Emergency Medical Table. The Solution.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Emergency Medical Table. The Solution.

branmakmuffin's Avatar


branmakmuffin
08.30.2013 , 08:35 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by tortcat View Post
My remedy myself is simple. Give everyone that bought a pack the table, refund the coins back, or simply give them a pack.
It is irrelevant how many packs you bought unless you also opened them.

Quote: Originally Posted by ShenLongKazama View Post
Nah, it'd be better if they put the table into the rep vendor for 12 certificates and 100k credits, but you need legend status to purchase it.
You and rantboi are quibbling about details. In concept, putting it at the rep vendor seems the best solution since rep is based on the number of packs you opened.

Endimar's Avatar


Endimar
08.30.2013 , 08:36 AM | #62
Making it a rep item is not a good solution. If you bought one pack, you had the same chance, per pack, as anyone else to get the table. That said, the item was also never linked to rep to receive from the pack. That solution effectively eliminates anyone who bought less than a hypercrate.

As far as all the other legal BS that was said. That is all pie in the sky crap. All that matters is that people spent real money for a chance at an in game item. Each CC can be valued at roughly a penny. Each CC has a monetary value, it has a USD Purchase price associated with it. Imagine each Hypercrate costing around $60.00.... If they sold one hundred thousand Hypercrates, it is roughly $6,000,000.00. That doesn't include individual packs.

The missing items are the Mood: Outrage and the Emergency Medical Table. The items were advertised to come from Shipment 3 packs, if it was advertised and not included, you deceived the consumer. It doesn't matter if it was an innocent mistake or not, every person affected is entitled to recompense for their loss. The value of the loss is value of the contract, the contract price is the CC cost of said pack(s) or hypercrate(s).

Now, if they made it so every person who opened a pack could obtain it, for no additional cost, at the same chance or better than the original contract, then they have fulfilled the obligation and cannot be held liable for the fraud. So what they do is send every person who bought a pack, another pack, on 1 to 1 basis. For every pack you bought you get this new pack. Inside the pack are 2 items from the loot table. The loot table contains the mood, the table, or a cartel coin. Your possible combinations are item 1; table or CC item 2: mood or CC. Most packs will contain 2 x 1 CC. Some will be an EMT and 1 x CC. Some will be 1 x CC and Mood: Outraged. Very few will be EMT and Mood: Outraged. As long as the packs contain the same chance or better they have fulfilled all obligations to the consumers.
This only applies to people whoopened packs BEFORE they announced the bug on the launcher. Once they put the notification up, they are no longer liable for future purchases. The contract terms have been changed and they notified you prior to purchase of the contract.

branmakmuffin's Avatar


branmakmuffin
08.30.2013 , 08:43 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Endimar View Post
Making it a rep item is not a good solution. If you bought one pack, you had the same chance as anyone else to get the table.
No, if you opened (not bought) one pack, you did not have the same chance overall as someone who opened 20 packs. 20 1% chances is better than 1 1% chance. It's certainly not 20%, but it's better.

Quote:
That said, the item was also never linked to rep to receive from the pack. That solution effectively eliminates anyone who bought less than a hypercrate. That is the kind of resolution that leads to problems. While one person here or there is no biggie, but one million people in a class action is different.
Class action? You mean lawsuit? That's ridiculous.

Quote:
The missing items are the Mood: Outrage and the Emergency Medical Table. The items were advertised to come from shipment 3 packs, if it was advertised and not included, you defrauded the consumer.
Look up "fraud." Fraud requires intent.

Quote:
It doesn't matter if it was an innocent mistake or not, every person affected is entitled to recompense for their loss. The value of the loss is value of the contract, the contract price is the CC cost of said pack(s) or hypercrate(s). So if someone bought a hypercrate, the value of the contract is 6221 CC. You then break down the cost of CC roughly $0.007 to 0.011 or a penny per coin. You are entitled to $68.41 roughly. If you only bought a cheap pack, 160cc, you are entitled to $1.76.
There was not a 100% chance to get the table, so the value of a pack re: the table is the cost of the pack times the chance to get the table.


Quote:
NOW if they made it so every person who bought a pack could obtain it, for no cost, at the same chance or better than the original contract, then they have fulfilled the obligation and cannot be held liable for the fraud. So what they do is send every person who bought a pack, another pack, on 1 to 1 exchange.
Not another pack, but a special item with the same chance at getting the table, and only the table. no other items.

Quote:
For every pack you bought you get this new pack.
No, no, no. It has nothing to do with how many packs you bought. How many did you open?

Endimar's Avatar


Endimar
08.30.2013 , 09:10 AM | #64
Fraud is right, while Mr. Webster says it requires intent, most US laws do not require intent for civil cases. Intent is only a matter for criminal cases.

I changed the same as every other person to reflect per pack. Your chance per pack are the same for everyone.

I did change to opened instead of purchased. I buy to open, I don't buy to sell.

I disagree with the value being the % chance because you do not enter the contract knowing the % chance. So your percent chance is really 100% until you open it. Once you open the pack it becomes 50/50. You either got it or you didn't. If they said you have a 5% chance before you purchased it, then it would be different.

C'mon can you see the headlines on CNN BioWare and EA sued for failing to include a tiny toy table in their MMO.
TOY TABLE TROUBLES leads to Mood: OUTRAGED!!!

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
08.30.2013 , 09:19 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Endimar View Post
Ok. Fraud is bad, deceived is better, although it really doesn't matter because it was a glitch in the code.
Any player that seriously believes they were deceived by a software bug inside a game needs counseling IMO. It's conflation to claim so, pure and simple.

It's a bug, it's been declared a bug, it's been declared that they will fix bug and apply a goodwill remedy for players. End of story.. except for the announcement (still pending) as to when the bug is fixed and a goodwill remedy applied for players. The goodwill part of remedy is probably what is slowing them down.. as how do you calculate and issue a fair goodwill remedy for something any given player has very low chance of receiving from opening any given pack. Which is why I still believe my suggestion to put a vendor in game that will take select other rare items from the pack in exchange for a table. It's MORE then fair, it gives players freedom of choice. And the mechanics of it need to be in game anyway.. because there will be bugs on pack content in the future.

As for all the class action and fraud nonsense.. LOL.. come on.. read AND comprehend the clever nature of the EULA you are bound by. There is a reason you cannot buy cartel packs directly with real world dollars. All you can buy is in-game tokens which have no intrinsic value other then to trade for in game virtual content (owned and controlled 100% by the company) which also has no intrinsic value.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

SlimsPicken's Avatar


SlimsPicken
08.30.2013 , 09:21 AM | #66
I believe the proper response in this situation is EA/BW: "we Effed up. Heres a free gift for everyone of a medical table toy!" enjoy!"
For every man there is a sentence, a string of words, which has the power to destroy him.

Endimar's Avatar


Endimar
08.30.2013 , 09:41 AM | #67
A few things you do not understand Andryah:

1) It is not a glitch or the software at fault, it was HUMAN ERROR. The software does not have an AI built in to it that determined to not include the item. A human forgot to program it. You were deceived by a human.

2) The Cartel Coins do have a real world value. US Federal Courts have upheld this with other things like XBOX points and Bit Coins. If you spend real world dollars for a digital or online currency, it has a real world value of its USD cost per single unit. In this case cost of each CC at the entry level purchase of $4.99 for 450 coins... roughly $0.011 per coin.

3) The EULA is binding up until they advertised OUTSIDE of the game itself. Also the EULA does not apply to transactions governed by another contract. That contract is the terms of use when you purchase the coins on the website and the Terms of Use of the website itself.

4) Putting in a contract that you are not responsible for something, doesn't make it so. If a contract contradicts a law, or a judicial ruling, it is null and void. You cannot take a persons rights away through contracts with said person.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
08.30.2013 , 09:57 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Endimar View Post
A few things you do not understand Andryah:

1) It is not a glitch or the software at fault, it was HUMAN ERROR. The software does not have an AI built in to it that determined to not include the item. A human forgot to program it. You were deceived by a human.

2) The Cartel Coins do have a real world value. US Federal Courts have upheld this with other things like XBOX points and Bit Coins. If you spend real world dollars for a digital or online currency, it has a real world value of its USD cost per single unit. In this case cost of each CC at the entry level purchase of $4.99 for 450 coins... roughly $0.011 per coin.

3) The EULA is binding up until they advertised OUTSIDE of the game itself. Also the EULA does not apply to transactions governed by another contract. That contract is the terms of use when you purchase the coins on the website and the Terms of Use of the website itself.

4) Putting in a contract that you are not responsible for something, doesn't make it so. If a contract contradicts a law, or a judicial ruling, it is null and void. You cannot take a persons rights away through contracts with said person.
It would be more correct to say you disagree with me, not that I do not understand. No ad hominem is required here.

The cause of a bug or software error is irrelevant. And.. neither you nor I know if it is actually human error. It could be caused by a glitch or other bug inside the software consoles used by the Humans at Bioware. It could be a data error on a disk.. none of us know. So.. let's not project where facts are not in our possession.

The core issue you are choosing to ignore here is that the item in question is not something you paid money for. It's digital content in a game declared inside the EULA as sold without warranty, that said contents are the sole property of the company and are subject to change/removal at any time at their sole discretion. It's also packaged in a product wrapper that says "game experience and content may change during play"

Cartel Coins have real world value only in the sense that you pay money for them, they grant access to a select range of content, can receive a refund for them under certain conditions, and that they give you select access to digital content inside the game, as does your subscription. No more, no less. What you use them for in game, if you ever use them in game at all, is completely up to your personal choices.. and as such this legally decouples any content inside the game from a claim of financial harm.

You have consumer rights and privileges under law over the purchase of a subscription. If you buy one and you do not break any of your contract terms with the company... they are obligated to give you reasonable access to play the game, or refund your money. Same goes for Cartel Coins. Neither of these give you any claim over any content inside the game itself.. only terms and conditions under which you can access the content.

The EULA is very specific about all of this. Whether you the consumer accept it in your mind is irrelevant. It's binding. The content inside the game is the companies IP. Your sole claim to it is the chance to play with it on their servers under their access terms and conditions. End of story.

Now.. if you want to make a claim of common standards of practice in the industry.. you can. There is both a common standard in the industry and for Bioware specifically to make a goodwill remedy for bugs that in some way negatively impact player experience and game play. And they have already said they will do so. And as players, we do not get to decide how they do it... but we can discuss it in the forum together and express our opinions. As long as their solution is generally reasonable and fair in context with their established practices in handling bugs, and is reasonably consistent with the rest of the industry.. there is no valid claim against the company. Period. end of story.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

ShenLongKazama's Avatar


ShenLongKazama
08.30.2013 , 10:39 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
It would be more correct to say you disagree with me, not that I do not understand. No ad hominem is required here.

The cause of a bug or software error is irrelevant. And.. neither you nor I know if it is actually human error. It could be caused by a glitch or other bug inside the software consoles used by the Humans at Bioware. It could be a data error on a disk.. none of us know. So.. let's not project where facts are not in our possession.

The core issue you are choosing to ignore here is that the item in question is not something you paid money for. It's digital content in a game declared inside the EULA as sold without warranty, that said contents are the sole property of the company and are subject to change/removal at any time at their sole discretion. It's also packaged in a product wrapper that says "game experience and content may change during play"

Cartel Coins have real world value only in the sense that you pay money for them, they grant access to a select range of content, can receive a refund for them under certain conditions, and that they give you select access to digital content inside the game, as does your subscription. No more, no less. What you use them for in game, if you ever use them in game at all, is completely up to your personal choices.. and as such this legally decouples any content inside the game from a claim of financial harm.

You have consumer rights and privileges under law over the purchase of a subscription. If you buy one and you do not break any of your contract terms with the company... they are obligated to give you reasonable access to play the game, or refund your money. Same goes for Cartel Coins. Neither of these give you any claim over any content inside the game itself.. only terms and conditions under which you can access the content.

The EULA is very specific about all of this. Whether you the consumer accept it in your mind is irrelevant. It's binding. The content inside the game is the companies IP. Your sole claim to it is the chance to play with it on their servers under their access terms and conditions. End of story.

Now.. if you want to make a claim of common standards of practice in the industry.. you can. There is both a common standard in the industry and for Bioware specifically to make a goodwill remedy for bugs that in some way negatively impact player experience and game play. And they have already said they will do so. And as players, we do not get to decide how they do it... but we can discuss it in the forum together and express our opinions. As long as their solution is generally reasonable and fair in context with their established practices in handling bugs, and is reasonably consistent with the rest of the industry.. there is no valid claim against the company. Period. end of story.
End of Episode 1. Episode 2 coming soon.
空の、エンター·ザ·ボイドと風になる
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branmakmuffin's Avatar


branmakmuffin
08.31.2013 , 02:36 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Endimar View Post
A few things you do not understand Andryah:

1) It is not a glitch or the software at fault, it was HUMAN ERROR. The software does not have an AI built in to it that determined to not include the item. A human forgot to program it. You were deceived by a human.
If someone forgot, it was not deception, it was a mistake. In any event, the issue is solved now.