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[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself

paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.24.2013 , 05:34 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
We simply don't need another offensive cooldown. We've already got ours, Target Acquired, and if people are really insistent upon thinking that it's not a good skill then probably never use it. Laze Target is actually very good for what it does. (If you don't keep either skill off cd, there's no other way of putting it - you aren't playing the class correctly.)

Why does our class in particular want this skill to be less boring when there's already plenty of "boring" skills for other classes? Does every skill have to be "exciting"?

The last thing we should be asking for is buffs and trying to change our already powerful abilities into more powerful abilities. It's ridiculous and petty to look down on the other DPS from our tier 1 pedestal trying to nitpick our way to the famed "Tier 0", where our class will be so overpowering that no dps will be allowed to exist in ranked or competitive play.

This isn't tweaking an ability; it's completely changing it in a blatant attempt to get more buffs to what is already considered the strongest ranged dps class in the game.
That is why i counted your vote for NO. If you think Laze Target is powerful then that is what you think and your vote accounts for it. Again the only question here is

On a normal mob in a PVE setting

Laze Target 1 min cooldown
Quote:
Auto-crit on next Snipe (4000 damage. Widely useful for Marksman spec only) or
Laze Target 2 min or 3 min cooldown
Quote:
Auto-crit on next
Ambush (MM - 8000)
Explosive Probe (Engineering - 6000)
Takedown (Lethality - 8000)
Laze Target or Smuggler's Luck now affecting abilities relevant to each of the Sniper Gunslinger specs, but increasing its cooldown by at least 100%. This may be a slight sustained DPS loss for Marksman Sharpshooter as well. So Flyburrito, if you look at it this way, we are actually slightly nerfing ourselves loljk.

Laze Target is so "meh" in all specs other than MM/SS. And even there it is such a marginal sustained DPS gain (as everyone has established during the weeks when we were discussing the Sniper questions). Ok let's put the "boring" and "unexciting" argument aside. Furthering down that argument leads to nothing. The BW proposed Laze Target makes it also useful for Engineering and Lethality, which is a welcome change.
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Fluffyburrito's Avatar


Fluffyburrito
08.24.2013 , 05:40 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
It's weak. Accuracy beyond 110% is useless, and you're going to have 110% in PvE or 105% in PvP anyway. Partial armor reduction translates to a tiny increase in damage, because armor is so weak in TOR to begin with.


I think you are playing another game.

#1 DPS are Rage Marauders.
#2 DPS are Rage Juggernauts. It's a close #2, too.
#3 DPS in PvP, as of 2.4, seem to be Advanced Prototype PTs.
#4 DPS, here finally come snipers.

The gap between #3 and #4 is so wide though that no one considers the #4, because #3 add survivability to compete with #1 and utility to compete with #2, while #4 add nothing except being fragile and immobile.
The only reason in PvP why Rage Mara/Juggs might get more DPS is the AOE in certain arenas like Voidstar where you stack up on doors. The numbers may be higher, but the overall single-target focus damage of a sniper is far greater. Unless your strategy in ranked involves stacking smash maras, (and it's mostly bringing just a combat mara at the moment for the speed buff) they would never beat snipers in a dual.

Of course, if we were actually talking about ranged classes and not including melee, we blow the other two out of the water.

As for advanced prototype, you're referring to the PTS server. On live it's a good spec (I have a 55 powertech alt that's been running it for months) that pulls out nice numbers, but on the PTS it's broken because of how tanky they are in a 4v4 environment with no limitations of using their tank stance. If it gets out of the PTS though, expect people to be asking for MM snipers since we actually do incredibly well against AP powertechs. (Marksman will be a great spec for arenas compared to the other two.)

TL;DR:

-Any bigger numbers that smash monkeys pull out is just because they have an AOE, not because they're good at singling down important targets

-AP is broken in the PTS because it's stupid tanky and has no limitations on their stance, but since MM sniper destroys AP, we'll actually be desired against them

-If you think the other two ranged classes don't look at sniper's kit and utility with longing and slight drooling you're a bit silly

paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.24.2013 , 05:43 PM | #33
Careful please do not derail the thread too much . If you could put offtopic discussion inside the spoiler tag:

[ SPOILER ] text here [ /SPOILER ]

it'll be greatly appreciated.
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Heal-To-Full's Avatar


Heal-To-Full
08.24.2013 , 05:50 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
The only reason in PvP why Rage Mara/Juggs might get more DPS is the AOE in certain arenas like Voidstar where you stack up on doors. The numbers may be higher, but the overall single-target focus damage of a sniper is far greater.
Is it? Try reading some parses. Smash auto-crits in correct rotation (and it's very easy to play correct) and it's more powerful than any ability a sniper has. It's also instant and AOE. At the very best, snipers might sustain a bit higher on a single target, but they burst lower, and if there is even occasionally another target, Maras score a clear win.

What's more, it's not all about DPS, it's about DPS to survivability ratio. Snipers are glass cannons. Juggs, even in the purest DPS specs, are off-tanks. And Maras, despite not being tankable at all, are just as tough. Overall, DPS Warriors/Knights are tougher than every other class in the game that isn't a tank specced tank class. Powertech AP is their only competitor in this regard.


Quote: Originally Posted by Fluffyburrito View Post
Unless your strategy in ranked involves stacking smash maras, (and it's mostly bringing just a combat mara at the moment for the speed buff) they would never beat snipers in a dual.
I want to see a dueling tournament won by a sniper.

No, I really do. I mean, it would have to be one of Pot5's best snipers versus a backwater server's middle of the road Mara, and there would have to be the changes I propose, ignoring mitigation - and maybe then it will finally happen, once in a while.

Maybe. So far, dueling tournaments are Warrior/Knight tournaments, anyone else drops out in the very earliest stages. The disparity is enormous. Really the only reason ranked and progression teams don't auto-dismiss snipers like they do even worse DPS classes is because the average Warrior/Knight tends to be a new player's first character, so it takes effort to pick a minimally competent one.
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence of the Sith race and the Sith people, the glory of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the Empire, so that we may fulfill the mission allotted us by the Force itself. Everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.

Fluffyburrito's Avatar


Fluffyburrito
08.24.2013 , 06:03 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
Is it? Try reading some parses. Smash auto-crits in correct rotation (and it's very easy to play correct) and it's more powerful than any ability a sniper has. It's also instant and AOE. At the very best, snipers might sustain a bit higher on a single target, but they burst lower, and if there is even occasionally another target, Maras score a clear win.

What's more, it's not all about DPS, it's about DPS to survivability ratio. Snipers are glass cannons. Juggs, even in the purest DPS specs, are off-tanks. And Maras, despite not being tankable at all, are just as tough. Overall, DPS Warriors/Knights are tougher than every other class in the game that isn't a tank specced tank class. Powertech AP is their only competitor in this regard.



I want to see a dueling tournament won by a sniper.

No, I really do. I mean, it would have to be one of Pot5's best snipers versus a backwater server's middle of the road Mara, and there would have to be the changes I propose, ignoring mitigation - and maybe then it will finally happen, once in a while.

Maybe. So far, dueling tournaments are Warrior/Knight tournaments, anyone else drops out in the very earliest stages. The disparity is enormous. Really the only reason ranked and progression teams don't auto-dismiss snipers like they do even worse DPS classes is because the average Warrior/Knight tends to be a new player's first character, so it takes effort to pick a minimally competent one.
I could really make another 5 paragraph response to this but since I don't want to derail the thread too much, I think it's just safer to say that your idea of balance and my idea of balance widely varies and leave it at that.

TheJanitor's Avatar


TheJanitor
08.24.2013 , 06:10 PM | #36
The problem isn't laze target/Smuggler's luck, its the ability to do on demand burst when a sniper/gunslinger wants to. Instead, the ability should be changed to better reflect the spec you are running (so basically a stance/cell in a way).

Laze target/smuggler's luck should be modified based on the spec you are running, and obtained only at the top tier of that tree. So for example, at the top of MM is the ability Sniper Volley, getting this ability also grants the ability "laze target", which gives a nice offensive that is based on the spec

So for Marksmen, you are suppose to high single target burst, so allow laze target to increase your crit change by 30% for 5 secs and increases your range by 5m. (Or something along these lines that would be balanced and fair)
(Another option would be, you cant LOS a sniper for a short time, so hiding behind a pillar would be pointless)

For Engineering, make laze target add an extra set of two cluster bombs on a target that explode along side the normal 4 you get from explosive probe, this allows for some extra nice burst for the spec. You could even make those two special cluster bombs be automatic crits.

For lethality, make it so when you use cull, cull adds an extra bleed effect on the target, allowing cull to inflict damage for 3 dots instead of 2. Once again this creates nice single target burst for the class.

For all these new uses for laze target, laze target should have 2 min cd.

So I'm in favoring of laze target need a change, but not in the way bioware proposes cause it still doesn't fix the problem of on demand burst.
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paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.24.2013 , 06:34 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by TheJanitor View Post
The problem isn't laze target/Smuggler's luck, its the ability to do on demand burst when a sniper/gunslinger wants to. Instead, the ability should be changed to better reflect the spec you are running (so basically a stance/cell in a way).

Laze target/smuggler's luck should be modified based on the spec you are running, and obtained only at the top tier of that tree. So for example, at the top of MM is the ability Sniper Volley, getting this ability also grants the ability "laze target", which gives a nice offensive that is based on the spec

So for Marksmen, you are suppose to high single target burst, so allow laze target to increase your crit change by 30% for 5 secs and increases your range by 5m. (Or something along these lines that would be balanced and fair)
(Another option would be, you cant LOS a sniper for a short time, so hiding behind a pillar would be pointless)

For Engineering, make laze target add an extra set of two cluster bombs on a target that explode along side the normal 4 you get from explosive probe, this allows for some extra nice burst for the spec. You could even make those two special cluster bombs be automatic crits.

For lethality, make it so when you use cull, cull adds an extra bleed effect on the target, allowing cull to inflict damage for 3 dots instead of 2. Once again this creates nice single target burst for the class.

For all these new uses for laze target, laze target should have 2 min cd.

So I'm in favoring of laze target need a change, but not in the way bioware proposes cause it still doesn't fix the problem of on demand burst.
So which one will you pick?

Laze Target 1 min cooldown
Quote:
Auto-crit on next Snipe
Laze Target 2 min or 3 min cooldown
Quote:
Auto-crit on next
Ambush (MM)
Explosive Probe (Engineering)
Takedown (Lethality)
Just so i have a firm understanding of where to put your vote. Otherwise you seem to be abstaining.
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Kawabonga's Avatar


Kawabonga
08.24.2013 , 06:35 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by B-Dick View Post
I want to see a dueling tournament won by a sniper.

No, I really do. I mean, it would have to be one of Pot5's best snipers versus a backwater server's middle of the road Mara, and there would have to be the changes I propose, ignoring mitigation - and maybe then it will finally happen, once in a while.

Maybe. So far, dueling tournaments are Warrior/Knight tournaments, anyone else drops out in the very earliest stages. The disparity is enormous. Really the only reason ranked and progression teams don't auto-dismiss snipers like they do even worse DPS classes is because the average Warrior/Knight tends to be a new player's first character, so it takes effort to pick a minimally competent one.
I am a waaaaay under-average sniper and i can count on one hand the number of times i rememeber losing to a knight. Fair enough that i never play rated, but most knights that killed me were part of premades of guilds that did, and i do remember going down with a fight. On the other hand, i do remember having an impossible day fighting capable snipers and slingers on my mara... If maras are scissors then snipers are rock. I'll just leave it at that


Back on topic, i'd love to see laze target change, since i find it so useless not playing MM i can't even remember where it's keybound

paowee's Avatar


paowee
08.24.2013 , 06:36 PM | #39
kowabonga - yes
janitor - undecided (?)
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Heal-To-Full
08.24.2013 , 07:03 PM | #40
Spoiler
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence of the Sith race and the Sith people, the glory of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the Empire, so that we may fulfill the mission allotted us by the Force itself. Everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.