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Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!
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LordExozone's Avatar


LordExozone
10.07.2013 , 06:42 AM | #341
Quote: Originally Posted by Luckeyduckey View Post
Pre 2.0 PT wasn't OP, it was just ahead of the curve. Match Pre 2.0 with Post 2.0 Rage/Any other class. PT pre 2.0 was glass cannon, and no one learned that. It's just like Mercs and Operatives pre 1.2. No one countered them.

We had the best single target burst in the game. So much, that when elite warhero min-maxed Pyrotechs came up against PvP rookies, they would destroy them in 3-5 global cooldowns. Was it strange people cried murder? No.
Against equally geared opponents, Pyrotech was fairly balanced, its burst potential compensated by its fragility. However, add in a pocket healer and that vulnerability is pretty much negated, as a result the Pyrotech was the single best class to take down healers in premades.

In essence the tree was designed wrong. It shouldn't be possible to kill enemy players that are not AFK from 100-0 in less than 15 seconds for any class. Obviously healers would have to be tweaked somewhat to account for the lack of burst to counter them. So what they should have done -and attempted but failed- was decrease the burst of the spec to more reasonable levels, and increase sustained dps and survivability to compensate. However what they did was pretty much remove the burst, not compensating with higher sustained dps but in fact nerfing that too, and reducing survivability to boot.
Kote! Kandosii sa kar'ta, Vode an.
Mandalore a'den mhi, Vode an. Bal kote, darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome. Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, Vode an.

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
10.07.2013 , 09:58 AM | #342
Top parses still have Assault/Pyro hundreds, sometimes thousands, of DPS behind snipers, 'slingers, marauders, sentinels, and 'mando/mercs.

While I respect KBN's math, the proof is there. No need for theory crafting, napkin math, etc. Parse it!

Go to DPS leaderboards, HM parses. You will see a LARGE disparity in DPS. Usually, very few VG/PT's on those lists. I have 5 #1 VG parses, and they are well below that of the above mentioned classes. Or, not within ~5%, or competitive.

2.0 PT/VG was 2.4 sniper/marauder. If the class was restored to it's former glory, it would not be OP, and I bet it would be quite competitive in DPS, within ~5%.

To argue this is just plain ignoring documented, factual information (parses).
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

HKtheindomitable's Avatar


HKtheindomitable
10.08.2013 , 07:43 PM | #343
Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post
Top parses still have Assault/Pyro hundreds, sometimes thousands, of DPS behind snipers, 'slingers, marauders, sentinels, and 'mando/mercs.

While I respect KBN's math, the proof is there. No need for theory crafting, napkin math, etc. Parse it!

Go to DPS leaderboards, HM parses. You will see a LARGE disparity in DPS. Usually, very few VG/PT's on those lists. I have 5 #1 VG parses, and they are well below that of the above mentioned classes. Or, not within ~5%, or competitive.

2.0 PT/VG was 2.4 sniper/marauder. If the class was restored to it's former glory, it would not be OP, and I bet it would be quite competitive in DPS, within ~5%.

To argue this is just plain ignoring documented, factual information (parses).
Agreement: This is so true it's ridiculous. However there are so many PvPers who complained about PT/VG being "OP" that BioWare buffed their classes (if I remember correctly, I may be wrong about the buff) and nerfed ours. If they buff us back up again, those same players will do the same again. They don't want a challenge because then they'll have to actually try. I personally don't PvP at all. I will when we can choose between Arenas only and regular WZs only. But until then, I don't care at all about how VG does in PvP.

Statement: When 2.4 went live, I parsed with Assault and got only 2300-2400 DPS. When I parsed with Tactics, I only got the same numbers. With the hybrid, I got ~2550.

Admission: I will admit that I had 17 72 pieces, with the rest being 69s, full set bonus, one Underworld relic of Serendipitous Assault, one Arkanian Relic of Boundless Ages, two [Artifact] Microfilament Reflex-D Enhancers, and a Verpine Boltblaster's MK-2 Device. All augmented with Aim augments and all geared with power mods. I also parsed while not stimmed. I now have 2 78 pieces and my average DPS went from 2550 up to 2600. Woop-dee-doo! The ONLY time I EVER went to or above 3000 DPS was with my burst attack. And that only went up to 3020 AFTER getting those two 78s.

Statement: HOWEVER, that's still a big difference between the single skill trees and the Hybrid. Last I saw was that Hybrid builds weren't supposed to be more powerful than a single skill tree. That's not how things are. I'm feeling like I'm holding down my guild when it comes to doing OPS because of my low DPS. And we're a casual guild. Not a hard core raiding guild. That's saying something.

Statement: It's not a lack of skill, and it's not just PvPers that are feeling these effects. PvE is feeling it too. Badly I might add. The facts are the facts. It's been written down and proven. My only hope is that with the next expansion they release it will change, but I think they said it won't change for a long time. They're "happy with the way it is now".
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unluckyperson's Avatar


unluckyperson
10.23.2013 , 02:38 PM | #344
Quote: Originally Posted by starwarsfansix View Post
Were vanguards that good pre-2.0? I was very far away from 50 at that time and I didn't get the chance to experience end game content.
we got nerfed because of all the PvP whiners that would whine about AP + HIB. I used to run my 4 piece commando PvP bonus and had near 50% crit rate on HIB and managed to pull about 1400 in TFB on a normal basis. I don't know if that's good but I was told by other guild members at the time that 1600 in actual ops was not easy to maintain.

HKtheindomitable's Avatar


HKtheindomitable
10.31.2013 , 01:12 PM | #345
Statement: I'm gonna resurrect this thread for a minuet with this post. It's probably going to annoy some members.

Rhetorical Query: But hey, BioWare values all their player's feedback, right?

Statement: So I did some testing (again), and I found that the Assault tree in PvE CAN do the same 2700 DPS as Tactics/Assault Hybrid. But ONLY if you are very very precise and manage it 100% perfectly. And that only happens on a Dummy. I do good reaching 2100 in a boss fight when only moving a little bit. I drop down to 2300 or lower DPS if I messed up my rotation. Burst DPS is great. 4k burst in less than full Underworld/Verpine.

Observation: It is however only possible if you get 8k HIB crits almost every time. Unfortunately HIB only hits 7k-8k every so often. It's also very very difficult to manage the energy cells correctly to get to the 2700. And I was in lousy gear, as my post before this one indicates.

Statement: However with the Tactics/Assault Hybrid, you can do 2700-2800 DPS with no trouble at all. Not having 8k HIB is no fun, but I'm doing better. I can reach 2500 easily in a boss fight (provided I don't move all the time dodging things). I only drop down to 2500 DPS against the dummy if I messed up my rotation badly and deplete all my energy cells. Hybrid burst is 3k, but for the tradeoff of constant higher DPS than full Assault DPS is worth it.

Statement: Tactics is still just as bad if not worse than Assault is in PvE.

Disclosure: I do have to point out that I do test unstimmed but fully buffed. Also at the point of posting this I have reached full 72 (minus one armoring (69), one Implant ([Artifact] Microfilament Reflex-D Enhancer), and one relic (Arkanian Relic of Boundless Ages).

Conclusion: So Assault has been improved upon and is better than it was after 2.0. But it still needs some work.

Suggestion: If it didn't use up the Energy cells so much, or if each ability did more damage (including HIB doing no less than 4500-5k minimum) it would be better or even with the Hybrid. Something that would help with Energy Cell management is if HIB returned more Energy cells than it currently does. Both of those suggestions would be even better.
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unluckyperson's Avatar


unluckyperson
11.01.2013 , 12:13 AM | #346
Quote: Originally Posted by HKtheindomitable View Post
Observation: It is however only possible if you get 8k HIB crits almost every time. Unfortunately HIB only hits 7k-8k every so often. It's also very very difficult to manage the energy cells correctly to get to the 2700. And I was in lousy gear, as my post before this one indicates.
.
Do you take Rapid Recharge? and based on your personal impressions do you think having 1 alacrity enhancement would help? or hurt? The other question if you have Rapid Recharge are you using Reserve Power Cell and Rapid Reload on cooldown/as necessary?

HKtheindomitable's Avatar


HKtheindomitable
11.01.2013 , 04:36 PM | #347
Quote: Originally Posted by unluckyperson View Post
Do you take Rapid Recharge? and based on your personal impressions do you think having 1 alacrity enhancement would help? or hurt? The other question if you have Rapid Recharge are you using Reserve Power Cell and Rapid Reload on cooldown/as necessary?
Answer: The answers in the order of your queries are Yes, hurt, yes.

Recitation: Keep in mind I didn't say it's impossible to do. Just very very difficult.
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TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
12.10.2013 , 06:38 PM | #348
Quote: Originally Posted by unluckyperson View Post
Do you take Rapid Recharge? and based on your personal impressions do you think having 1 alacrity enhancement would help? or hurt? The other question if you have Rapid Recharge are you using Reserve Power Cell and Rapid Reload on cooldown/as necessary?
Alacrity will Hurt assault/pyro rotations as it makes the GCD slightly less than 1.5, but the proc can only happen once ever 6 seconds (4GCDs for 0 alacrity, 5GCDs for 0-25% alacrity) so unless you can somehow hit 25% alacrity, dont get any (@25% alacrity the GCD is 1.2 seconds)

Quote: Originally Posted by HKtheindomitable View Post
Statement:Observation: It is however only possible if you get 8k HIB crits almost every time. Unfortunately HIB only hits 7k-8k every so often. It's also very very difficult to manage the energy cells correctly to get to the 2700. And I was in lousy gear, as my post before this one indicates.

Statement: However with the Tactics/Assault Hybrid, you can do 2700-2800 DPS with no trouble at all. Not having 8k HIB is no fun, but I'm doing better. I can reach 2500 easily in a boss fight (provided I don't move all the time dodging things). I only drop down to 2500 DPS against the dummy if I messed up my rotation badly and deplete all my energy cells. Hybrid burst is 3k, but for the tradeoff of constant higher DPS than full Assault DPS is worth it.
well with the 20% armor debuff on a 1-mill hp dummy, I can parse about 2950 on near-BiS Underworld (replace 1 armoring with arkanian for the set bonus, and another with commando 34 boots I got when gearing up my tank with 34 enhancements, and the implants/earpiece were sadly comm gear - Boltblaster Earpiece: Crit/Surge and Med-Tech Implants x2: Power/Surge) when going assault

There is a simple priority I mathed up to do this, and it never runs out of energy either!

GCD Energy Procs Cooldowns/Skill Remaining energy
1 (any) Incendiary Round 68, 76, 84
2 (any) HiB Available High Impact Bolt 84
2 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92
3 (any) Stock Strike 68, 76, 84
4 (any) Ionic Accelerator High Impact Bolt 84, 92, 100
4 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92
5 (any) Assault Plastique 68, 76, 84
6 (any) Reserve Powercell Ion Pulse 76, 84, 92
6 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92
7 (any) Ion Pulse 68, 76, 84
8 (any) Ionic Accelerator High Impact Bolt 84, 92, 100
8 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92
9 (any) Stock Strike 68, 76, 84
10 84 Ion Pulse 76
10 <84 Reserve Powercell Ion Pulse 76, 84
10 <84 Recharge Cells Ion Pulse 100
10 <84 Hammer Shots 76, 84
11 (any) Ion Pulse 68, 76, 84
12 (any) Ionic Accelarator High Impact Bolt 84, 92, 100
12 (any) Hammer Shots 76, 84, 92

Oh and throw in Combat Focus + Shoulder cannon off cooldown, time Attack Adrenals with Shoulder cannon + Combat Focus.

And in ops dont be afraid to use energy shield - it can add up to 100dps over the fight from using it.

HKtheindomitable's Avatar


HKtheindomitable
12.11.2013 , 01:23 AM | #349
Statement: First off, you speak of hitting 2950 on a debuffed dummy with 1mil HP. I'm using the regular dummy.

Statement: I should point out that at the time I posted that, I was 75% 72s and still had arkanian implants, earpiece and relics. I now have full 72, Oroconian implants, earpiece, one Arkanian relic, one 78 Armoring in the Bracers with a 72 Mod, and 78s in my belt, 2 in chest, and 2 in offhand, all Armorings and Mods, and am hitting 2925 with ease.

Admission: I will admit I had a Nano Reflex stim active, so it's more like ~2850. So one can imagine how high it will be at full 78s.

Statement: It is required, however, that the numbers come from the default dummy (though it doesn't really matter since the damage output is still going to be the same on any of them). I used your rotation TACaMossie, and I must say that, while it is very efficient with it's power cell usage, the full Assault tree is still not hitting at, or higher than, the Hybrid like it needs to. I could only reach 2800. And I was using the same Nano Reflex stim and getting HIB crits constantly. I also never used any Attack adrenals. For yours or mine.

Conclusion: That being the case, on a dummy with the Armor Debuff, Hybrid will still out perform the Full Assault tree.

Admission: I've been proven wrong about the power cell depleting too fast. However, the results don't lie. Assault just doesn't put out enough damage to be at or better than the Hybrid. It's close, but no dice.
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