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Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Tatanka's Avatar


Tatanka
08.24.2013 , 01:08 PM | #121
The first answer was a complete waste. They talked more about the other tanks than VG/PTs.

I'm somewhat amused that the first round of questions went so great, but the second round was as successful as a tie fighter pilot in an asteroid field. Future rounds of questions can only get better... right?

Once again, /trooperfacepalm

Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
08.24.2013 , 01:20 PM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Skolops View Post
I agree with the sorc replies, at least for DPS. I know its a tough thing for a lot of people to hear, but the class really does have a very high skill cap. Players at the very top of the chart can do very, very well because their kiting, LOS, and positioning are very good. Players who are average or even above average will not do as well. To me, this is fine. Sorcs really are glass cannons which do so much damage that they need to be extremely squishy otherwise.

For healers, the answers are not good enough.

But this is not the place to discuss that.
I can't really speak to everything you said, since I don't have a sorc or a sage, but from what I do know, there are some player perception issues for both of these classes they responded to recently. There were a few comments in the Sorceror section that complained about DOTs being cleansed or cast times being an LOS problem, like those weren't issues for other DPS classes. I have to worry about LOS when channeling pretty much any of my good abilities on my Gunslinger, and other DOT specs have the same things to worry about as Sorcs (so it might be a question of how to help DOTs in the game--though of course not too much, because you do have to cleanse them and the classes that can cleanse them have to be ready and willing to cleanse them on teammates... and I know I've been brought down by DOTs plenty and hate fighting DOT classes on many of my channeling classes). And I've also often felt like people hate on DPS Vanguards far more than my experience with them justifies. I do pretty well with mine and don't really see why they're perceived as being so bad.

That, of course, doesn't mean they don't have issues, but players do have to keep in mind that in any MMO, not every DPS class can be the king of DPS classes, and not every Tank class can be king, either. The point should be keeping them in an acceptable range of each other and for players to stop needing to be FOTM on any class they play. I doubt players will ever be free of the latter, but any good dev team should be aware of it.

Not that I think these responses are all that great. One thing I wish the Vanguard questions had done (particularly number one), had compared skills qualitatively, rather than list them off, which allowed more of the brushoff answer. The question assumes that the reader appreciates the qualitative differences in those skills (and really, Stealth Scan is nothing like any Guardian skill listed), which is going to be an issue in any exchange like this. I know from reading other threads how Harpoon isn't really equivalent to Leap and how some Vanguards see it as weaker, but I wouldn't count on the devs appreciating that. Since I've been on the receiving end of both Harpoon and Leap, I can often see Harpoon as being more annoying, as it's putting me where the Vanguard or Pyro wants me to be, rather than them coming to where I want to be.

But regardless, the tone of the dev responses really does need some work, as well as their depth. You can easily see that the communities worked on these responses quite a bit (particularly when you think that this is a game for them, not their job), so they do deserve more depth about how the devs specifically see Vanguards and Sorcerors doing okay from their end, rather than assuming players can see what they're seeing (which many don't, as noted above).

With how things are working out, both sides need to work on their communication and their depth, I guess. I'm hoping that can be worked on, as I really do like this game and wish the players and devs worked together better.

OldSpiceSwag's Avatar


OldSpiceSwag
08.24.2013 , 01:21 PM | #123
everyone saying that we should calm down and present logical arguments instead of pages of perception problem:

have you not followed these forums or the pts ones since 2.0? have we not presented oodles of logical arguments, metrics, and examples of how the class is under performing? havent we tried being civil? the answer is yes. the reason we the gag is circulating is because obviously engaging in logical arguments doesnt work with the devs; they dont see the issues. so the sad thing is, the only way to make them aware of how wrong they are is to continuously ridicule them until they realize how stupid the answers and their train of thought is/was/will be

and anyone saying that the questions were worded poorly:

would it have mattered? nope. go check out the sorc questions. worded better, WORSE response.

Gullesvupper's Avatar


Gullesvupper
08.24.2013 , 01:31 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Skolops View Post
I agree with the sorc replies, at least for DPS. I know its a tough thing for a lot of people to hear, but the class really does have a very high skill cap. Players at the very top of the chart can do very, very well because their kiting, LOS, and positioning are very good. Players who are average or even above average will not do as well. To me, this is fine. Sorcs really are glass cannons which do so much damage that they need to be extremely squishy otherwise.

For healers, the answers are not good enough.

But this is not the place to discuss that.
Wow, just wow.
Bioware insulted Sorcs and Vanguards only because of bad questions

Regards,
Juggs, Marauders and Snipers.

ChickenWangs's Avatar


ChickenWangs
08.24.2013 , 02:00 PM | #125
I'm just going to go out and say it even if it is harsh:

These were terrible answers to these questions. Absolute trash.

In the first question you failed to address the fact that Vanguards currently have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game. The explanation that "oh their range makes up for it" is a cop out. Any smart melee class is just going to leap/pull/speed/slow the target vanguard, waltz right up to them, and kill them. Heavy armor makes little to no difference in the dps classes because the game is designed to where just about anything penetrates armor. Even when assault specialist had great burst the defensive cds were still trash. They were just covered up by the fact that most targets could be killed before we needed them.

On to the hybrid vs 36 point build
Assault plastique has never been useful in PVE. The extra Ion pulse damage will outperform a 15 second CD of that ability. Assault plastique was not useless in pvp (pre-2.0 due to burst). The nerf in 2.0 made it useless for anything. A slight buff in damage does nothing for PVP. Burnout being buffed? So what? You also failed to mention that because of the reduced energy requirement, IR was nerfed in damage. 36 point builds work for very few classes all around the game.

And finally your last answer. The buffs you have made to vanguard will simply make the TTK less. But isn't that why they were nerfed in the first place? The TTK was fast, but it needed to be fast so that the vanguard never had to rely on useless defensive cds. Now attempting to revert the class back to a weaker version of pre-2.0 is the solution? If reactive shield and adrenaline rush were simply buffed to do something besides delay death for 2 seconds, the class might work a bit better.
The Dominator Legacy
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X-Boson's Avatar


X-Boson
08.24.2013 , 02:21 PM | #126
Intermediate state:
@Anyone who think players themself should have asked some good questions in order to make some improvement, u are very childish. Are u guys aware that you paid for this game? And then you have to finish their job? Really? Well, probably some ppl just have fun with that.

Very dirty.


Small remark for your reallife, in society: never let people tell u what u should have done. If you have no idea what to do in a new environment, just leave.

Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
08.24.2013 , 03:18 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by OldSpiceSwag View Post
everyone saying that we should calm down and present logical arguments instead of pages of perception problem:

have you not followed these forums or the pts ones since 2.0? have we not presented oodles of logical arguments, metrics, and examples of how the class is under performing? havent we tried being civil? the answer is yes. the reason we the gag is circulating is because obviously engaging in logical arguments doesnt work with the devs; they dont see the issues. so the sad thing is, the only way to make them aware of how wrong they are is to continuously ridicule them until they realize how stupid the answers and their train of thought is/was/will be

and anyone saying that the questions were worded poorly:

would it have mattered? nope. go check out the sorc questions. worded better, WORSE response.
The original three questions were civil, which is a good thing. I just think it would have helped to be more focused, and I'm not the only one saying it, either. I have my doubts as to whether players would have been satisfied with the responses if the questions had been stronger, but it woudn't have hurt.

As for the civility issue, you won't get anything done by throwing insults or throwing around walls of text with "perception problem." If the devs and community people don't already skim past those (and maybe ignore these threads because of them), I wouldn't be surprised. Lack of civility doesn't lead to much at all, no matter how frustrated you are.

For the record, I understand the difficulties for players and devs with this. I came from City of Heroes and was a vocal voice for a balance change for a shapeshifting class called Kheldians. They finally worked on Kheldiansand I actually had some private message exchanges with the dev in charge of the changes. He was pretty clear on what he was trying to do and where he was going to hold back for a bit to see if his changes were enough to balance things out, but he was leery of talking too much with those in the community, because players in any MMO tend to pick apart anything a dev says, whether they meant it that way or not. And it's true, we do tend to do that.

The devs here don't seem as communicative or responsive (particularly on the PTS forums), but keeping it civil is worthwhile. But if you're too fed up with things, I can understand giving up for awhile. This is a game, after all.

Botho's Avatar


Botho
08.24.2013 , 03:23 PM | #128
Mehhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
08.24.2013 , 03:55 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Pilgrim_Grey View Post
The original three questions were civil, which is a good thing. I just think it would have helped to be more focused, and I'm not the only one saying it, either. I have my doubts as to whether players would have been satisfied with the responses if the questions had been stronger, but it woudn't have hurt.

As for the civility issue, you won't get anything done by throwing insults or throwing around walls of text with "perception problem." If the devs and community people don't already skim past those (and maybe ignore these threads because of them), I wouldn't be surprised. Lack of civility doesn't lead to much at all, no matter how frustrated you are.

For the record, I understand the difficulties for players and devs with this. I came from City of Heroes and was a vocal voice for a balance change for a shapeshifting class called Kheldians. They finally worked on Kheldiansand I actually had some private message exchanges with the dev in charge of the changes. He was pretty clear on what he was trying to do and where he was going to hold back for a bit to see if his changes were enough to balance things out, but he was leery of talking too much with those in the community, because players in any MMO tend to pick apart anything a dev says, whether they meant it that way or not. And it's true, we do tend to do that.

The devs here don't seem as communicative or responsive (particularly on the PTS forums), but keeping it civil is worthwhile. But if you're too fed up with things, I can understand giving up for awhile. This is a game, after all.
There is a large difference between we will look into it. Or the class is supposed to do specific objective and telling the community they have a perspective problem. If they wanted things to be civil, maybe they should have considered not insulting players or actually responding to the questions.

MarkXXIV's Avatar


MarkXXIV
08.24.2013 , 06:48 PM | #130
Looks like I just saved 15 bucks a month.
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