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[HM] Styrak - DPS Check question


Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
08.21.2013 , 03:04 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by JMagee View Post
Please don't take anything I'm about personally and there is a bit of a soap box element to it as well.

Forget about Bloodlust.

Don't try and get 3, don't worry about 2. I've done the fight with a Gunnery Commando, MM Slinger, Balance Shadow and an Assault VG, and you can easily beat the enrage.

If you're trying to get out more DPS by adding more bloodlusts, you're not trying to get better. It's kind of a like the adage of putting a bandage on a bullet hole.

HMs are tuned that you can choose without any worry to bring players, not utility/higher DPS ceilings. Focus on getting your group's DPS up. Getting back in there and learning the phases, tightening up your rotation on dummy, lining up adrenals/relics etc. will be more rewarding if/when you want to move into NiM content.

Also, make sure everyone has 3-4 prototype adrenals to use on cool down, not just biochemists. We found at first when we were still learning the fight/gearing up that if our tank even just used a clicky power relic as one of his relics, it was a huge help in beating enrage.

So to sum it all up...bring players, not Bloodlust. People not being able to do their jobs effectively will eventually come back to bite you.


To argue against inspiration you must know something many of us don't. One of the best PVE 8 Man guilds on TOFN who has both the terror from beyond and dragonslayer titles are using a two sentinel, 1 commando, 1 gunslinger setup. I don't know how you do it it, but when I start most fights I have 30 stacks of centering and valorous call available. The other sentinel has the same thing, therefore, when I use inspiration, which I do first, as raid leader I need the timer, the other sentinel uses ZEN. So he gets, zen+my inspiration+his other trinkets. His opener as watchman is 3400 and his dots tick like batman on a pogo stick. When my 30 stacks are up, he uses inspiration and I get the pogo stick buff.


Now lets look at the other two dps who benefit from inspiration. So either way, when using inspiration, you will have 3 people doing 15% more damage. When the second inspiration is on its way, you have again 3 people doing 15% more damage. You call these inflated numbers that is your problem. My guild uses the tools BioWare gave us and we down bosses just fine. There are no extra medals for not using sentinels and if it makes matters easier and you can carry people in ops to gear them up, why should we be against it? Just last night I ran SV HM, we were 5 from our normal progression and three joined to get gear. We cleared the instance without any issue. The three had 61-66 gear. Again, please point me to a video or a guild that has two shadows in their progression, NIM, DPS ofc.



Bottom line : If you want to make things harder for yourself, be my guest. Everyone wants to have the best chance at killing a boss and at the moment this is with two sentinels, 1 commando, 1 gunslinger or 2 sentinels and 2 gunslingers.

Quote: Originally Posted by kaelthy View Post
To beat the Styrak you need to have 2100 dps per Damage dealer, not hard to achieve.

That being said, that marauder of yours is doing poorly, marauders are in my opinion 2nd best dpsers, nr. 1 being snipers, but marauders are capable of doind 3000 dps with 72 gear.

My guild has done S&V HC without any wipes in under 2 hours, so the instance on HM is not that hard, just need some 2100 dpsers. (Major problem to clear NiM, since every dpser in NiM has to do at least 2500 - 2800 dps, and only a small percentage of DPSers can pull that off)


That is close to the optimum but you can carry them. As I said above we had 3 people with low grade gear. The parser showed the following last night :

1. My sentinel 2550 DPS, was a bit short, some lag spikes on my game for some reason.
2. Second sentinel 2725DPS, i wanted to slap him seeing these numbers
3. Gunslinger 1 1975 DPS
4. Gunslinger 2 2020 DPS.


We had 4 inspirations, damage from healers, boss died without any issue. Everytime I start this fight I go for a swim and build 30 stacks of centering.
Guild: Rebel Dream Stream:Shadow Tank PoV
Server
: TOFN

Ausgelebt's Avatar


Ausgelebt
08.21.2013 , 03:43 AM | #42
Thumbs up for Leafy. You see which people talk from theory and who actually does the ****.


Sometimes we do 7man toborro :-)

AAAAzrael's Avatar


AAAAzrael
08.21.2013 , 07:58 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
It *might* be possible if you have a DPS with a taunt. That DPS would need to "tank" for 1) when the tank is choked during the first dragon phase, 2) when the tank gets trapped in a nightmare, and 3) during the second dragon phase, long enough for the tank's stacks to drop off. They will need to burn most of their defensive cooldowns for those phases. You might also have them taunt during the dragon spin phase so the tank can shield the rest of the group from spikes and the DPS can drop the acid away from the group.
We usually have DPS with a taunt for this (guardian), but it can be well done without one as he will go for the highest - both slingers and sentinels have good defensive cooldowns so it's not such a big issue. I solo tank it practically every week since I first cleared it, and my first clear was helping out another guild who's MT wasn't there and I solo tanked that one as well.

The protection from dragon's spinning and dropping the spit in right spot can be done solo without much issue if you time it right. Only real issue with solo tanking this one is that I will usually have 0 cooldowns left for bun phase after resurrected dragon and end up dead before the end which is not nice.

JMagee's Avatar


JMagee
08.21.2013 , 09:04 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
To argue against inspiration you must know something many of us don't... .
I'm not trying to argue against inspiration. I agree with you completely that it's a fantastic tool that can help push encounters in your favor. I was trying to point out two things.

1.The fight, if the players are geared/play well enough, does not require Inspiration(s) to beat the enrage timer.

2. I was suggesting that what needs to improve are the players behind the characters. Yes, the OPs group could probably get a second inspiration in the group and have less work to do to beat the enrage timer. But eventually Inspiration isn't going to be the answer.

Eventually (if they are interested in continuing to progress into NiM/even future HM raids) they will hit an encounter that won't allow them to use (another) Inspiration as a get out of jail free card.

So in my ignore Inspiration rant I was proposing that they get better at the fight with who they have, rather than try and sneak past by adding another Inspiration to the group.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.21.2013 , 09:51 AM | #45
The benefit from Inspiration when time-averaged over 300 seconds is just not that exciting. Sorry, Leafy. You get 15% extra DPS for 15 seconds out of every 300 (at most), which is just an 0.75% (no typo on that decimal) increase to overall DPS. If your raid has 4 damage dealers who can parse a 3k, you will pick up a grand total of 90 DPS over the course of your fight, which is a mere 27000 HP. This is why I say that the armor debuff is so much more exciting, since you're talking about an improvement to DPS across the entire raid that is on the order of 3-4% (depending a lot on class).

The exciting thing about Inspiration is that the effect is concentrated in a single burst window. Thus, for fights where you have interrupted uptime or specific burst moment (the EC Kephess Walker is a great example), Inspiration is absolutely DOPE. What you described though was popping it right off the bat, which is a fair thing to do, but it doesn't actually affect your group's DPS all that much.

Also, remember that Inspiration is almost DPS neutral for a combat or watchman sentinel within the burst moment. Which is to say, rather than picking up 15% of your DPS, you're really only picking up about 0.67% within those 15 seconds. The reason for this is the loss of Centering stacks which would have built during the buff. As a result, Inspiration isn't even an 0.75% buff for your group. Instead, it is the following:

(2*0.75 + 2*(0.67*15/300)) / 4 = 0.39%

That's it. Again, assuming you have four damage dealers over 3k, you're picking up 11.7 DPS over the whole fight.

Inspiration is great, but don't over-value it. My guild runs a sentinel, a commando and two gunslingers (one SS and one hybrid) in Nightmare modes, but we don't use Inspiration except under very specific circumstances because our Sentinel is in Focus spec and we just plain don't need it. The benefits are quite marginal except in burst windows.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank)

Ausgelebt's Avatar


Ausgelebt
08.22.2013 , 12:07 AM | #46
Maybe I calculate wrong but:


4dps pulling 2500 each equals 10000 raid dps

15% increase = 11500 raid dps

thats 1500 raiddps more for 15 seconds in styrak fight you have 2 inspirations or 4 if you 2 sents

now give 2 inspirations at begin and 2 inspirations at 2nd kell dragon (amplified + adrenals +relics)..

only did like 3 parses with 2x zen so it might be not that accurate but jeez.


You're so theoretically KBN.. I mean you can time inspiration perfectly, especially at styrak when 2nd dragon always comes at about 13% you can just inspiration->VC->Zen and it is all good.. I am not spending my time doing calculations over and over, but I down bosses practically and while doing that I'd always favor inspiration over Zen.

On the dummy, when I don't use inspiration at the begin, but 2x Zen my dps goes from around 3k +- 50 dps over 5minutes to 2850-2900 over 5minutes

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.22.2013 , 10:45 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausgelebt View Post
You're so theoretically KBN.. I mean you can time inspiration perfectly, especially at styrak when 2nd dragon always comes at about 13% you can just inspiration->VC->Zen and it is all good.. I am not spending my time doing calculations over and over, but I down bosses practically and while doing that I'd always favor inspiration over Zen.
Not sure what you're implying. You know that I progression raid in nightmare content, right? My guild has gotten server firsts on all but one of the nightmare bosses cleared thus far (we are a bit behind the other servers, but not by a lot). :-)

In any case, as I said, the benefit of Inspiration is timing it with a specific burn phase. That's a benefit which is undeniable and it's the true strength of the ability. However, popping Inspiration right off the bat in a fight, while still a good idea, is not something that is as dramatically beneficial as most people seem to believe. Remember that the cooldown is very, very long and you need to time-average the effect to derive the value of the utility. The uptime ratio just isn't that good.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank)