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When can we expect a DPS balance patch?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
When can we expect a DPS balance patch?

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.14.2013 , 01:21 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Your argument falls down simply based on the fact that (ignoring shadow/sin DPS which I will get to in a bit) there is no fight that even vaguely requires the DPS put out by a Pure DPS class. The biggest DPS check right now is NiM Dread Guard and every class that can DPS can easily (still ignoring shadow/sin) put out the 2400 DPS required. Most are significantly above that. Inspiration/BT, as pointed out by KBN, is actually MASSIVELY over-rated in terms of its actual contribution. Trans/Pred? In order to use that we have to build 30 stacks of fury and then waste them for raid utility; it is actually very bad for our DPS to not Berserk/Zen on CD is all specs (which by the way, if we aren't doing in Watchman/Anni, we're not providing the raid heals, which are minuscule). Snipers Armor debuff can be brought by yourself and Guardian/Juggs, so that is pretty redundant and irrelevant since so many other classes can bring the debuff. I have never even partly, slightly, maybe argued that Marauder's CDs aren't very useful but I do think people need to understand that aside from Force Camo (which is one of the best threat drop mechanics in the game; Threat drop, Damage Reduction, Invis, and speed buff) they all come at a heavy price. Inspiration/BT prevents ourselves and other Marauders from building Fury which is a big DPS loss because it delays our next Berserk/Zen. Its a useful trade-off though because it boosts everyone's DPS at the expense of some of our own personal DPS. Predation has extremely limited utility at the expense of wasting a minute building fury, spending it to speed every one up and then having to build it again. Undying Rage gives us effectively 5 seconds of immunity at the expense of 50% of our health, great trade-off assuming you are going to get healed right back up but unless you are using it to cheese a mechanic, chances are you aren't going to get the heals meaning you are going to die when it ends. Its a delay.
First off, KBN said that Inspiration's contribution to raid DPS over the while fight was negligible. As I've pointed out before though, Inspiration's true benefit is to significantly increase raid DPS during burn phases. These phases are very non-trivial on several fights. Increasing everyone's DPS by 15% during one of those phases CAN make the difference between a wipe and a clear, especially in progression. I mean lets face it, beating a third surging chain on DG pre-nerf was very much a make or break on meeting that DPS check, and Inspire could mean the difference between meeting that check or not meeting that check, and sniper's ability to cheese those big lightning field hits was also pretty significant. Groups did it without inspire but you can't tell me they didn't have to work harder. For that matter groups did it without requiring off heals.

Second of all there should NEVER be such a disparity in sniper and mara DPS and everyone else, and should NEVER be a fight which would require that DPS. That's the whole point. The second those two things happen classes will get pushed out of DPS roles. We already see it happening with shadow DPS. You seem to be arguing for that disparity to exist between mara and sniper and everyone else. Maybe that isn't what your real point is, but it's the point you keep communicating. Please clarify if that's what you want because if it is then you are the very mara fanboy you think everyone is accusing you of.

Finally, your complaints about the costs of your mara utility do not affect me. First, because what the hell do you think off heals cost? Time and resources, usually a non trivial amount of time and resources. Secondly, because Sentinels were told that centering building will no longer be locked out by Inspires and Transcendence, so even the small cost you currently endure will no longer be required. Additionally, knocking situational utility because it's situational is kind of cutting the throat of your own argument isn't it? I mean what's more situational than off heals or off taunts? Again I can think of SEVERAL fights where transcendence was super helpful. Inspire kind of speaks for itself. The sniper shield costs absolutely nothing, and the armor debuff from sniper is definitely non-trivial, especially in an 8 man ops group. Guardian tanks aren't always on the main raid target to apply theirs you know.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
As stated above, your assumption that I was even beginning to state that Sniper/Mara utility has no utility is false. They have decent utility but, aside from Sniper Shield, it either comes at a cost or is redundant. Here is a better example: If you were buying a car and could buy one that was really fast or one that was just as fast and had great fuel economy, why would you ever buy the one that didn't have great fuel economy? Snipers and Maras have utility but it is NOT in ANY WAY enough to truly change the outcome of a raid, whereas Hybrid DPS classes CAN. Plain and simple.

Again, YOU seem to be acting like off heals have no cost, and by definition off heals are redundant. Your example is also grossly misrepresentative. First of all because you guys have good fuel economy as well. That's my whole point. The very fact that we can disagree so much on the relative utility by the way should make it clear to you that it ISN'T as cut and dried as you might think. Both off heals, inspires, and the sniper shield can all change the outcome of a pull. I maintain that you explicitly plan on using the inspires and shield, whereas you mostly just use the off heals for a crutch.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Now you're just being ridiculous. You cut out the next two words of the quote just to make it seem like I was an idiot.
Those next two words proved that you knew how absolutely dumb that argument was.




Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Why would we be arguing about non-progression raiding? There is no reason to be even slightly worried about DPS differences in non-progression raiding so your point about the drop-off of utility is irrelevant. Again, Sniper/Mara utility cannot affect the outcome of a raid. It can increase QoL and nothing more.
Because people don't grow more comfortable with a boss during progression? Indeed for the truly hard fights, a clear DEPENDS on people becoming comfortable and capable of maximizing their performance, and the more comfortable people get the less necessary those off heals are. Indeed I've seen, I'm sure you've seen, progression nights where the first pull is a horrendous wipe, and the final kill is close to text book perfect, just because people were able to adjust. Yes I also know that sometimes the progression kill is super dirty and accomplished with one or two people left standing. Still, as I pointed out above, lets not seriously pretend that a well timed Inspire or a well placed sniper shield can't make the difference between a kill and wipe. That's pretty disingenuous of you. You may think it isn't because once you have a fight on farm you're still using those inspires, even though you could beat the boss without it, but that's kind of my point on sniper/mara utility. On progression fights they CAN make the difference between a wipe and a kill. Maybe not in super flashy ways like off heals, but we both know they can make that difference. And then once you don't need them, they provide that QoL buff, so like I said, they're pretty much always useful.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
I admitted that for the simple fact that its true. Shadow DPS is in a bad place and I have said that freely in multiple places.
Right. As I said, from the way you defend this issue, one would think you honestly prefer that disparity between snipers/maras and everyone else. This statement is why I don't necessarily think that's the case, but until you said it I admit I would have cherished my doubts. You notice though that I'm also not asking for super serious buffs to classes. QoL stuff like ammo management for gunnery commando isn't gonna suddenly make snipers irrelevant.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
I would seriously and honestly question whether or not you should be playing your commando. Unless you are talking about purely fluff AoE damage, in which case your point is irrelevant and simply there to be argumentative.
I was talking about the ops dummy. I couldn't honestly believe it either, but my sniper best is right on with my commando best, and my sniper can do it more consistently. The reason is that pushing your energy to the absolute max on marksman sniper results in better than average DPS whereas pushing your ammo to the max on gunnery commando is pretty much what's required to get competitive DPS.

But hey question whether or not I should be playing my commando. I've never claimed to be particularly good, but if I'm not a good player I'm the same not a good player on both classes. There's no honestly better way to compare classes than to compare them with the same person behind the controls. Of course playstyle comes into it (I may be a bad commando but I'm a horrendous sentinel), but both are turret specs.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
I'm confused what your point here is. I specifically stated that pure DPS should do better DPS so if our gear were equal then I absolutely believe I should do more DPS. She agrees. Your point here is irrelevant. Also, I can absolutely assure you the increase in skill is irrelevant. The only reason she has better gear than me is that my work schedule prevents me from raiding consistently and I refuse to take gear from regular raiders. When I am available I raid with her group which invalidates the skill argument.
The skill argument was down to asking whether her closing the gap is an example of just getting better gear or also HER getting better. Of course I should also ask what you mean by "kicked her butt". For instance if you were out DPSing her by 200-300 DPS when you were both equally geared, is that because the disparity in sorc and mara is really that large, or if in the midst of that nightmare raiding your sorc friend was able to up her game. After all, you did bring skill into it, so it's a valid thing to consider since you're using this as an example. The real test will be if you still kick her butt when you're equally geared. What does that look like to you in terms of DPS? A solid 150 DPS ahead? A solid 300 DPS ahead? The former is acceptable since she's ranged and you're melee, but the latter isn't acceptable at all. My real point was that this example needs more information if we want to seriously consider it for this discussion.


Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
First off, lets address the DPS issue: Pure Balance/Maddess does not have resource issues except in PvP where they cannot consistently cast and fully channel Force Lightning. Gunnery/Assault on the other hand, DOES have significant resource issues but only if played incorrectly. If you manage your resources you can and will do great DPS and have enough to throw Kolto Missile/Bomb down once in awhile (something you should be doing anyways).
I don't play pure balance so I was going off what you seemed to be saying so that's my bad. Off topic somewhat, but the hybrid utility (off heals and taunts) would be more of a point in PVP where those have much more of an impact, but even there sniper/mara have their own unique utility with the Trauma debuff, so again that's an example of getting their own unique utility to balance out their lack of heals or taunts. Takes a team to properly utilize that though.

The resource issue isn't just a L2P issue. Ammo management is TIGHT if you wanna push that DPS. And if you don't need the kolto bomb you shouldn't throw it. You're there to do DPS. If it is needed then you should throw it. Knowing the difference is pretty important, but the odd kolto bomb is also not really what's saving a raid. Before Kolto bomb the situation was even worse though. If you have to stop and actually cast MP or AMP that's a huge DPS loss and resource cost.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Second, when did I ever state or even insinuate that offtank/heals would always save a raid? I said their ability to do so was more desirable because it is a fact that if poop hits the fan an off healer/tank will be able to do more than a shield or a BT/Inspiration. Your entire argument is based around the fallacy that I was somehow claiming that having offheal/tank is an autowin which is simply ridiculous.
Your argument IS that off chance that you can save the raid with off heals and taunts is so good that those classes deserve to do noticeably less DPS. That begs the question of how often you can actually save a wipe. Your argument is also based on the fallacy that a shield or BT/Inspiration can't pull a raid out of the fire (there are definitely situations where they can), and ignores the fact that a sniper shield, by significantly helping the healers during a high raid DPS situation, or an inspire, by pushing everyone through a soft enrage or early high damage burn phase, can prevent the poop from ever hitting the fan in the first place.

My argument is that the number of times a wipe is actually recoverable through off heals and taunts as a percentage of wipe inducing incidents is not significant enough completely overshadow the always useful utility of the shield and inspire to the point that those classes should also get significantly higher damage. They don't have to be an autowin for them to be significant enough, but they have to be able to recover from a wipe a significant enough number of times, and I don't think their recovery ability is significant enough.

Even if their utility was exactly as good as inspire and the shield, that just means that for that reason the damage should be more or less the same.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Further the argument that BW has stated all DPS should be equal is flat out wrong. They have stated that they should be within 5% of each other. Maybe all of you are so butthurt because you wrongly assume that I am arguing for a 10% or greater difference. In general, all dps classes can put out at least 2900 DPS and putting aside fluff damage Snipers/Maras are putting out 3100. Thats JUST over 5%. If you really think thats unfair then absolutely buff the other classes so they can hit 2945 because that is 5%.
That damage difference is almost 7%. That's missing their window by a pretty wide margin actually. Additionally usability also comes into it. You'll notice that I admitted that most classes are in need of QoL buffs over straight damage buffs. The top members of each class are hitting those numbers, but the drop off for commando or sorc, or God help us all shadow, is incredibly significant. Also when they said classes should be within 5%, why do you automatically assume that snipers and maras deserve to be at the top of that window? I don't think they actually should be. I think melee should be at the top of that range, and ranged on the lower simply because of range granting so much utility, and otherwise I see no other compelling reason other than random luck over who should actually be at the top end. Certainly the "pure DPS" classes don't seem to me to have a compelling reason to have the undisputed top spot.

Also minor point but in your example the top end is still 5.3% higher than your lower end. Still closer. Again though, if I'm honest I'd just like it to be easier for people to reach their potential.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
If you are looking at dummy parses and seeing the huge numbers and NOT looking into it to see whether that is single-target, non-buffed (meaning not affected by outside mechanics like the damage boost on Kephess) then you simply should not be adding to the discussion because people who are just worried about whether or not they are getting bigger numbers than other people are what is and has always been wrong with MMOs. The only thing I truly care about in a raid is whether or not the boss goes down. DPS meters are great for inspiring friendly competition as well as allowing a player to see where they can improve. This and the threads like it end up being filled with people who just want to see bigger numbers and are angry that another class hits harder than them not because of any affect that has on killing bosses but rather on their own ego.
If you aren't interested in your own ego then why do you care if other people do the same damage as sniper and mara?
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

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kennethdale
08.14.2013 , 01:48 PM | #22
Ok, rather than sniping at each other lets try and clarify what our viewpoints are and where we disagree because it seems to me that we actually aren't that opposed.

These are my opinions and beliefs:

1) My best geared character is my Marauder who I usually play as Annihilation. I also frequently play Corruption, Lightning, and hybrid on my Sorcerer; Arsenal and Bodyguard on my Mercenary; and Immortal and Vegeance on my Juggernaut. I am currently leveling an Assassin who is primarily being used for PvP at the moment in Deception. I play all of these characters very frequently in Operations and will point out that only one of them is a "Pure" DPS class and even on that character I do not play the "big burst" spec. I choose to play the sustained but slightly lower DPS spec because of the utility it brings to the raid in the form of approximately 300 HPS.

2) There *should* be a disparity between pure DPS classes and hybrid DPS classes.

3) If there were exact equality between all DPS, high-end progression raids would ultimately forego pure DPS for many fights simply because there are not many situations wherein BT or Shield will well and truly affect the outcome of an encounter whereas having an offheal/offtank frequently will.

4) The disparity should be within the already claimed 5% margin (eg: if Pure DPS is pulling 1000 DPS, Hybrid should be at 950)

5) Shadow/Sin DPS is in a very bad place at the moment and needs to be seriously re-evaluated. Also Mercenary/Commando resource management, while completely functional, penalizes the player for making mistakes too harshly in terms of those resources and the affect it is has their ability to function in their role. Also Vig/Veng Guard/Juggs have severe issues with both their threat drop being extremely expensive and the RNG involved with the Rampage proc.

Now, it seems to me that you are not so much against the disparity but more against the current severity of the disparity. My biggest concern is that bosses die but I honestly and truly am afraid that if there were absolute parity between classes that Marauders and Snipers would be significantly less desirable.
55 Mercenary { Drekevac } rDPS || 55 Marauder { Kryu } mDPS
55 Sorcerer { Jahaerys } Heal
55 Juggernaut { Caryu } Tank || 55 Assassin { Vellys } Tank

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OlosBC
08.14.2013 , 02:21 PM | #23
I disagree with 2 and 3 there. I do not think that marauder/sniper utility is less than that brought by an off heal or an off taunt, and thus do not think they should be given additional damage in exchange for utility that is not missing.

The 5% figure is a goal of variance across all classes, not an intended variance between 2 classes and everyone else.

Other than a couple outliers, I'm overall happy with the current state of balance in the game. Could it be better? Sure. Could it be worse? Absolutely.

My main disagreement is with the idea that there should be a "hybrid tax" on classes just because they have the option of playing multiple roles.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
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ArchangelLBC
08.14.2013 , 02:49 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Ok, rather than sniping at each other lets try and clarify what our viewpoints are and where we disagree because it seems to me that we actually aren't that opposed.
An excellent idea! Actually, I suspect the same thing, because twice in as many days you've said things in discussions I've been part of that made it clear that our positions were much closer than our rhetoric might have suggested.

Quote:
These are my opinions and beliefs:

1) My best geared character is my Marauder who I usually play as Annihilation. I also frequently play Corruption, Lightning, and hybrid on my Sorcerer; Arsenal and Bodyguard on my Mercenary; and Immortal and Vegeance on my Juggernaut. I am currently leveling an Assassin who is primarily being used for PvP at the moment in Deception. I play all of these characters very frequently in Operations and will point out that only one of them is a "Pure" DPS class and even on that character I do not play the "big burst" spec. I choose to play the sustained but slightly lower DPS spec because of the utility it brings to the raid in the form of approximately 300 HPS.
Fair enough. My best geared character by far is my Gunnery commando. I also have a Kinetic Combat Shadow who I've used to tank both operations through Hard Mode (I'm more a backup tank so rarely am I pulled in for progression for that), a sharpshooter gunslinger that I'm using currently as we gear out people, though I'm also proficient in DF and Hybrid, a Marksman Sniper that I use to raid imp side, a sentinel that I've dabbled in all three specs with in ops, though I rarely bring her, and am currently leveling a Jugg for imp tanking and DPS, and a PT for imp tanking. I'll level scoundrel or operative next just for scamper/exfiltrate =)

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
2) There *should* be a disparity between pure DPS classes and hybrid DPS classes.
Obviously I disagree. Though if the 5% upper limit is adhered too, then I can live with that since perfect balance is probably impossible. 7% is too much in my opinion. I am admittedly more comfortable with the disparity existing more between ranged and melee because as I often say, ranged is such a huge utility all its own, while melee is a liability all its own. Even then though, the 5% needs to be seen as an absolute upper limit, not the goal we work our way down to.

Additionally, I also believe that 5% should exist between average players. Some classes are easy to attain most of their damage potential or even leave room for creative ways to up their damage (SS Slinger is a prime example), whereas some require absolute perfect play to be competitive (shadow DPS is the most glaring one).

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
3) If there were exact equality between all DPS, high-end progression raids would ultimately forego pure DPS for many fights simply because there are not many situations wherein BT or Shield will well and truly affect the outcome of an encounter whereas having an offheal/offtank frequently will.
As I raid leader I disagree with that greatly. Arguably we already see how that isn't true when you look at the various melee DPS. Now admittedly, there is the perception that maras do more, but ask most raid leaders who aren't unduly prejudiced and they'll tell you that the real reason you bring maras is for bloodthirst. Looking at the actual numbers, Operative is putting up incredibly competitive numbers, and before 2.0 VGs were putting up absolutely sick damage. Melee DPS damage is all actually super close right now. But maras are still brought first because of Bloodthirst, whereas I don't know of anyone bringing operatives for any other reason than the player behind the controls. No one I know of is seriously bringing operative DPS because of their off heals.

Now again, that may simply be due to its perceived utility over its actual utility in a lot of cases, but I maintain that it's absolutely crucial during certain burn phases.

Obviously, I see things like inspire and the shield being very important to progression, especially when used at the right moment. This has historically been true, and I don't see any reason to think it won't be true in future. To my mind the utility of these classes is just as good as off heals, and even better depending on how you look at it.

For this reason, I don't think they should necessarily have an obvious DPS advantage as the situational utility brought by off heals and off taunts is more than off set in my mind by the utility brought by inspiration and the shield. Especially since raid leaders rarely form a group specifically to take advantage of off heals or off taunts. Often those are thing you use because it's there, but any raid leader worth their salt will tell you that if they had their preferences they'd have an inspire and a shield.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
4) The disparity should be within the already claimed 5% margin (eg: if Pure DPS is pulling 1000 DPS, Hybrid should be at 950)
Whatever disparity exists between whoever I agree with this. Except the 5% should be based on the lower number. So if a lower parsing DPS was parsing 950, the top parsing DPS should be parsing 997.5 DPS (950 x 1.05). That may not really be that big of a deal, but the smaller disparity the better in my opinion. Honestly they should shoot for closer to 2.5% difference, with a tolerance of +/- 2.5%, and that's even assuming we accept that such a disparity should be built in.

I think that, in general, they should shoot for absolute parity, because actual implementation will always fall short of that, so that once they're within 5% they figure it's close enough for government work. If they shoot for 5% the disparity is going to be bigger at some point.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
5) Shadow/Sin DPS is in a very bad place at the moment and needs to be seriously re-evaluated. Also Mercenary/Commando resource management, while completely functional, penalizes the player for making mistakes too harshly in terms of those resources and the affect it is has their ability to function in their role. Also Vig/Veng Guard/Juggs have severe issues with both their threat drop being extremely expensive and the RNG involved with the Rampage proc.
I agree with this (I find Gunnery commando also suffers a tad from Rng on Curtain of Fire procs. Think that's barrage for you). In general, Shadow DPS needs a pretty huge overhaul, and the other "hybrid" classes need some QoL tweaks to make meeting their potential easier without necessarily upping that potential to any large degree. I believe that those changes alone, if done properly, would probably do enough to smooth the most serious disparities and bring everyone closer to that 5% window.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
Now, it seems to me that you are not so much against the disparity but more against the current severity of the disparity. My biggest concern is that bosses die but I honestly and truly am afraid that if there were absolute parity between classes that Marauders and Snipers would be significantly less desirable.
I think it's accurate to say I'm more against the current severity we're seeing. As I said above, I believe that an actual disparity will exist naturally even if they devs aim for absolute parity, and because of this, building in a disparity on purpose sems superfluous.

Also, I want to reiterate that as a raid leader, I can't see there ever being a time when marauders and snipers AREN'T desirable in a world where we have parity. I don't have that fear at all lol.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

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kennethdale
08.14.2013 , 03:47 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Additionally, I also believe that 5% should exist between average players. Some classes are easy to attain most of their damage potential or even leave room for creative ways to up their damage (SS Slinger is a prime example), whereas some require absolute perfect play to be competitive (shadow DPS is the most glaring one).
You are 100% correct. What some players are capable of doing is absolutely ridiculous and most will never be accomplish similar feats.

Quote:
Also, I want to reiterate that as a raid leader, I can't see there ever being a time when marauders and snipers AREN'T desirable in a world where we have parity. I don't have that fear at all lol.
Perhaps our difference in opinion comes from our difference in backgrounds; I am still fairly new to SW:tOR (I have only been playing since February/March) but my main MMO background comes from the 6 years I spent in WoW, 3 of which were in extremely high-end raiding guilds. I have seen the reality of hybrid DPS brining more utility than pure leading to those players, no matter the skill, being benched. The best example of the two sides of the coin are both from The Burning Crusade: Shadow Priests and Shamans.

Shadow Priest DPS was immensely complex and completely impotent. Their only saving grace was that through DPS they restored mana and health and because of this they became a necessity in high-end raids simply to keep healer's mana pools up. Shamans on the other hand (Restoration, Enhancement, and Elemental) were all fairly decent with the best being Restoration. Yet they also brought Bloodlust which in end-game content became vital to progression. In spite of being slightly less potent than Holy Priests at AoE healing, Shamans began to usurp raid spots (or Paladins if there were more of them) simply because without Bloodlust, there were bosses that just could not be downed.

Now, that said there is no comparable utility to that in SW:tOR and as of yet there is no fight that requires that level of Min/Maxing but my fear comes form a reality I have seen happen. That is why I get a bit heated when I see claims of this happening in SW:tOR because it has not.
55 Mercenary { Drekevac } rDPS || 55 Marauder { Kryu } mDPS
55 Sorcerer { Jahaerys } Heal
55 Juggernaut { Caryu } Tank || 55 Assassin { Vellys } Tank

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bbrooks
08.14.2013 , 04:12 PM | #26
I've posted this in other threads and I'll post it again here. The reasoning for "pure DPS" classes to out dps "hybrids" is extremely flawed. The fact of the matter is, enrage timers are a large part of this game. Doing anything possible to avoid these will make any raid group better.

I've always liked this example, If maras and snipers were doing the exact same dps as the other classes would they still have raid spots? Of course they would, because they have the best raid utility in the game.

In a perfect world all dps would be completely balanced, with utility separating them. In a less but still more acceptable world, some classes would have inherently higher dps, but would fall behind in the utility. The problem with SWTOR currently is the classes that bring the most raid utility are the exact classes that are topping the damage meters.

Even if content is clearable running 4 shadow dpsers. that does not make it optimal and that group will have significantly more trouble clearing anything than a equally skilled group running 3 snipers and a marauder. I play mostly "hybrid" classes, not because I like the option of respeccing, but because those are the classes whose playstyle I most enjoy. Should I really be punished because my Lightning sorc has the option of going corruption even though I do not heal for my raid team?

It honestly comes down to balancing DPS and utility. Being able to respec is not utility. Do off heals help? Of course, but at the cost of stunting your DPS. Bioware needs to reexamine how they decide class balance. Even damage and even utility should be aimed for, but currently Snipers/Maras have the highest of both for the most part.
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ArchangelLBC
08.14.2013 , 04:13 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post

Perhaps our difference in opinion comes from our difference in backgrounds; I am still fairly new to SW:tOR (I have only been playing since February/March) but my main MMO background comes from the 6 years I spent in WoW, 3 of which were in extremely high-end raiding guilds. I have seen the reality of hybrid DPS brining more utility than pure leading to those players, no matter the skill, being benched. The best example of the two sides of the coin are both from The Burning Crusade: Shadow Priests and Shamans.

Shadow Priest DPS was immensely complex and completely impotent. Their only saving grace was that through DPS they restored mana and health and because of this they became a necessity in high-end raids simply to keep healer's mana pools up. Shamans on the other hand (Restoration, Enhancement, and Elemental) were all fairly decent with the best being Restoration. Yet they also brought Bloodlust which in end-game content became vital to progression. In spite of being slightly less potent than Holy Priests at AoE healing, Shamans began to usurp raid spots (or Paladins if there were more of them) simply because without Bloodlust, there were bosses that just could not be downed.

Now, that said there is no comparable utility to that in SW:tOR and as of yet there is no fight that requires that level of Min/Maxing but my fear comes form a reality I have seen happen. That is why I get a bit heated when I see claims of this happening in SW:tOR because it has not.
I never really played WoW at all, but your experience does shed some light on your perspective.

The thing to keep in mind is that hybrid DPS, as in a class that is brought both to DPS AND do something like heal, isn't really a thing in SWTOR. No one's bringing a gunnery commando to fill a healing role while also bringing much better damage than a Combat Medic Commando. The heals are a nice little perk, but it's not nearly the same thing right now, and before Kolto bomb is was down right laughable. I always felt this was intentional design to prevent exactly the kind of thing you're worried about.

Your bloodlust example is interesting because I'm given to understand by others that played WoW that bloodlust was the analog of our very own inspiration.

Lets face it, when you need to do a lot of DPS quickly, inspiration is the best buff in the game.

My worry, for what it's worth, is that with any sort of decently significant DPS difference then if truly tight DPS checks ever do occur, we'll see all other DPS classes that aren't sniper or mara being pushed out. Heck even though it wasn't even necessary, people were already crying the sky was falling and claiming that 1 mara and 3 snipers was the only way to down it. Thankfully, those proved to be panic induced reactions (the first clear I believe had an arsenal merc and a vengeance jugg). But you and I both know this is as much a perception game as anything, and right now inspiration in particular is often seen as needed.

Like you, I don't want any DPS to be pushed out because other classes are considered required. On the utility front I honestly think that BW has done a decent job balancing that kind of thing, which is why I feel damage should be similarly balanced. That way you truly can always take player over class.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
08.14.2013 , 04:43 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
he thing to keep in mind is that hybrid DPS, as in a class that is brought both to DPS AND do something like heal, isn't really a thing in SWTOR. No one's bringing a gunnery commando to fill a healing role while also bringing much better damage than a Combat Medic Commando. The heals are a nice little perk, but it's not nearly the same thing right now, and before Kolto bomb is was down right laughable. I always felt this was intentional design to prevent exactly the kind of thing you're worried about.
To clarify: there were no classes that truly were in a raid to fill two slots. Shadow Priest heals were on par with Annihilation Marauders. I use the word "hybrid" in reference to the fact that the class is able to fill more than one role not in reference to their ability to fill two roles in one spec.

Quote:
Your bloodlust example is interesting because I'm given to understand by others that played WoW that bloodlust was the analog of our very own inspiration.
I have heard/seen this before and I didn't mention it because of how far off of the mark it is. Bloodlust increased Haste (similar to Alacrity) of party members (not raid wide) by 30% for 40 seconds. This reduced the global cooldown as well and could also reduce it below 1 second. Purely in terms of usage, the two skills are quite analogous; guilds often would move Shamans into and out of groups to keep the Bloodlust rolling on the top DPS just as some guilds do this with Bloodthirst but in terms of actual damage output look instead at Zen (which for Combat increases alacrity by 30%) and the effect this has on skills like Master Strike. Now put that on 4 of your top DPS for 40 seconds. This boosted DPS by 25-30% depending on how long it was chained and how much Haste the players had innately which in terms of normal raid SW:tOR DPS (approximately 2800) means the dps would increase by about 1200 as opposed to the 90-120 provided by BT. That is why Bloodlust became make or break for raids and why there were certain bosses that were just not possible without it. This isn't all completely relevant but I thought it warranted clarification.

Quote:
My worry, for what it's worth, is that with any sort of decently significant DPS difference then if truly tight DPS checks ever do occur, we'll see all other DPS classes that aren't sniper or mara being pushed out. Heck even though it wasn't even necessary, people were already crying the sky was falling and claiming that 1 mara and 3 snipers was the only way to down it. Thankfully, those proved to be panic induced reactions (the first clear I believe had an arsenal merc and a vengeance jugg). But you and I both know this is as much a perception game as anything, and right now inspiration in particular is often seen as needed.
You are absolutely right, that first kill included arguably the best Arsenal Merc and Vengeance Jugg I know of. Which is a perfect example of how balanced DPS is in this game right now (aside from the issues already listed). The changes I see as necessary however make it so the numbers produced by those elite 1% are more attainable by every player in more situations.

Quote:
Like you, I don't want any DPS to be pushed out because other classes are considered required. On the utility front I honestly think that BW has done a decent job balancing that kind of thing, which is why I feel damage should be similarly balanced. That way you truly can always take player over class.
The issue I see here is that as of right now, without exception you can bring the player not the class. Even Shadow/Sin DPS is manageable when performed by a skilled player and those players are still often as not raiding on their Shadow/Sin. That is why I am argue against making significant changes.
55 Mercenary { Drekevac } rDPS || 55 Marauder { Kryu } mDPS
55 Sorcerer { Jahaerys } Heal
55 Juggernaut { Caryu } Tank || 55 Assassin { Vellys } Tank

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.15.2013 , 01:51 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
To clarify: there were no classes that truly were in a raid to fill two slots. Shadow Priest heals were on par with Annihilation Marauders. I use the word "hybrid" in reference to the fact that the class is able to fill more than one role not in reference to their ability to fill two roles in one spec.
Fair enough, but both your examples were what in FFXI we called support classes, whose sole purpose is to provide buffs to everyone else. Those kinds of classes don't actually exist in SWTOR.


Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
I have heard/seen this before and I didn't mention it because of how far off of the mark it is. Bloodlust increased Haste (similar to Alacrity) of party members (not raid wide) by 30% for 40 seconds. This reduced the global cooldown as well and could also reduce it below 1 second. Purely in terms of usage, the two skills are quite analogous; guilds often would move Shamans into and out of groups to keep the Bloodlust rolling on the top DPS just as some guilds do this with Bloodthirst but in terms of actual damage output look instead at Zen (which for Combat increases alacrity by 30%) and the effect this has on skills like Master Strike. Now put that on 4 of your top DPS for 40 seconds. This boosted DPS by 25-30% depending on how long it was chained and how much Haste the players had innately which in terms of normal raid SW:tOR DPS (approximately 2800) means the dps would increase by about 1200 as opposed to the 90-120 provided by BT. That is why Bloodlust became make or break for raids and why there were certain bosses that were just not possible without it. This isn't all completely relevant but I thought it warranted clarification.
Well lets be fair, the only reason we aren't already seeing that with Inspiration is the super long cooldown on it. Even then I've seen 16 mans stacking 4 or 5 sentinels to double stack inspiration on your DPS groups. There's the drawback of the DPS lost by the sentinels unable to build centering, but based on what the devs said that's going to soon become a thing of the past.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
You are absolutely right, that first kill included arguably the best Arsenal Merc and Vengeance Jugg I know of. Which is a perfect example of how balanced DPS is in this game right now (aside from the issues already listed). The changes I see as necessary however make it so the numbers produced by those elite 1% are more attainable by every player in more situations.
We agree completely on this front.

Quote: Originally Posted by kennethdale View Post
The issue I see here is that as of right now, without exception you can bring the player not the class. Even Shadow/Sin DPS is manageable when performed by a skilled player and those players are still often as not raiding on their Shadow/Sin. That is why I am argue against making significant changes.
In order to really take a shadow you HAVE to take a top 1% shadow. Taking player over class means you should be able to take an average player regardless of class. Like you though, I think that simple QoL buffs will indeed fix the majority of problems.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Benets's Avatar


Benets
08.18.2013 , 01:13 PM | #30
They don't care at all. I say same thing you're saying for a long long time. You can always see a melee, like JK top dps, with something like 900k dps when others keep 600k. Specially sage that have no dfense.

If you see the community class representative they said that, about survivability. Cos' its an obivious thing, evrybody knows that, bioware probly know that (if they don't know, they're dumb - it's a likely hipothesis).

But they'll not change, cos' they only care about money, so they keep doing "new" stuff in cartel market and let game keep screwd.

Their greed will make them lose profity at long temrs, cos it's matter of time people flee of this game again when they notice that's the same old **** and imbalanced.

I think they go to suggestion forums choose the good ones and delet and keep the worst suggestions.
- "Do or do not, there's no try" -
Benets
aka
Mxyzptlk