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When can we expect a DPS balance patch?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Damage-dealing
When can we expect a DPS balance patch?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.09.2013 , 12:29 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by OlosBC View Post
However, I don't think they bring sufficient utility above and beyond what snipers and maras bring such that classes possessing a tank or heal spec should take a hit in their dps when in a full DPS spec. That was my main point.
I'll agree there. I think class utilities are reasonably well balanced, overall. I don't think there is any need to inhibit DPS to compensate for utilities in the current game, and a lot of the classes bear that out. Scoundrels, for example, have the highest single-target DPS spec in the game, despite off-heals, stealth rez and battle rez. Gunslingers can essentially keep up with Scoundrels as a pure DPS spec, but they also bring some very strong utilities as well as nicities like pushback immunity (very useful on fights like Dread Guard where there is a lot of raid damage).

The point I was making earlier though is that even if a spec happens to be somewhat behind the others in single-target DPS (on the order of 3-4%), if their utilities are desirable for a particular group comp and raid, I'd probably take them anyway (especially if they are well played).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
08.09.2013 , 01:14 PM | #12
Can't argue with any of that.

My original comment wasn't really directed at you anyway, more just the idea that seems common on these forums that "hybrid" ACs, when in a full DPS spec, SHOULD be behind "pure" ACs in DPS. This notion is, IMO, complete *********.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

KurtDunn's Avatar


KurtDunn
08.09.2013 , 02:21 PM | #13
I do appreciate that you have great experience in NiM raids, but the benefits of bringing more than one armor debuff seems dubious. They patched it so they don't stack way back. If you have a guardian tank (and almost all progression groups run with at least one Guardian tank), the utility of bringing a Gunnery Commando or Guardian DPS for their debuff is redundant.

Fact stands that every fight has an enrage mechanic. Every fight is a DPS check, and what really matters is how much blood DPS can squeeze from the stone. I am sure that it's possible to do NiM content without the most optimal class combination is possible, but I am unconvinced of equity between the DPS classes.

To your earlier point of dummy DPS parses only measuring sustained damage on bosses, I am struggling to remember any fights that don't have long stretches of DPS. The ramp up time for Vigilance Guardians, for example, is about 15 seconds. And 90% of all fights give you at least 15 second windows for DPS. I don't see the benefit of taking Focus over that for the rare exceptions.

And on the subject of Focus, to your brief comment on Focus Guardians, I have noted that Focus damage output is notably lower than Vigilance, with the exception of rare, productive AoE DPS (Dread Guards and Cartel Warlords don't count). I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but Vig is consistently higher single target damage.

ArenCordial's Avatar


ArenCordial
08.09.2013 , 10:52 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KurtDunn View Post
I do appreciate that you have great experience in NiM raids, but the benefits of bringing more than one armor debuff seems dubious. They patched it so they don't stack way back. If you have a guardian tank (and almost all progression groups run with at least one Guardian tank), the utility of bringing a Gunnery Commando or Guardian DPS for their debuff is redundant.

Fact stands that every fight has an enrage mechanic. Every fight is a DPS check, and what really matters is how much blood DPS can squeeze from the stone. I am sure that it's possible to do NiM content without the most optimal class combination is possible, but I am unconvinced of equity between the DPS classes.

To your earlier point of dummy DPS parses only measuring sustained damage on bosses, I am struggling to remember any fights that don't have long stretches of DPS. The ramp up time for Vigilance Guardians, for example, is about 15 seconds. And 90% of all fights give you at least 15 second windows for DPS. I don't see the benefit of taking Focus over that for the rare exceptions.

And on the subject of Focus, to your brief comment on Focus Guardians, I have noted that Focus damage output is notably lower than Vigilance, with the exception of rare, productive AoE DPS (Dread Guards and Cartel Warlords don't count). I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but Vig is consistently higher single target damage.
No Vigilance is definitely the go to spec for Guardians for single-target. If it wasn't or even if the difference was very small between it a Focus there would be no point for Vig at all.

kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
08.10.2013 , 07:43 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by OlosBC View Post
Can't argue with any of that.

My original comment wasn't really directed at you anyway, more just the idea that seems common on these forums that "hybrid" ACs, when in a full DPS spec, SHOULD be behind "pure" ACs in DPS. This notion is, IMO, complete *********.
Why is it complete ********? The fact is that a Marauder/Sentinel or a Sniper/Gunslinger has only the utility abilities of the AC and their DPS. Every other class has their own utility abilities AND the ability to off-heal/off-tank in a bad situation which in-and-of-itself makes them more desirable. If all DPS were truly and completely equalized there would be no reason for a Pure DPS class in an Operation simply because under no circumstance is their utility greater than being able to temporarily fill in for a Healer or Tank. All of the max level toons listed in my signature are in HMs frequently (and NiM when my work schedule permits) and I fill all possible roles on all of them, so don't mistake me for a Marauder who loves his pretty big numbers and is so terrified someone will outdps me. I *truly* believe that Hybrid ACs should be slightly lower for the same reason that Rage/Focus should have lower single-target DPS than Annihilation/Watchman and Carnage/Combat: If it were equalized you would remove any need for the others.

Edit: As to the idea that there is such a thing as a "full dps" spec for the "hybrid" ACs, does that mean you have never put points into a tank/heal tree? I know for Sorc/Sages, Merc/Mandos, Jugg/Guards, Sin/Shads, PT/VGs, and Op/Scoun its very helpful to put at least a few points in their respective tank/heal tree. Unless you are putting 0 points in the tank/heal tree then you're not "full dps". Facetiousness aside, I have personally successfully (meaning the boss went down, not necessarily that I survived) Vengeance tanked, Arsenal Healed, and Lightning healed HM Op bosses. Whether or not the healing/tanking abilities are in your rotation, you have them and *should* use them when poop hits the fan just as a Marauder should use Undying Rage or a Sniper should use Sniper Shield. Heck I've even done *strategies* that use hybrid classes' innate off-specs to down bosses. How is that not utility?

I have seen *a lot* of people claim that on this fight or on that fight you absolutely need to bring only this class or only that class or that this class is mathematically impossible to do that fight with and its simply not true. There is currently no benefit to stacking any single class because of the way each ACs utility plays off of each others. The only class that this is not entirely true for at the moment is Shadow/Assassin DPS because frankly unless the player is of an amazing calibre, they will not come anywhere near even mediocre players of other classes and *that* is unbalanced. Mercenary/Commando Arsenal/Gunnery and Sorcerer/Sage Madness/Balance resource management is pretty broken as well, to be honest (not to mention Pyrotech/Assault). As are the true DPS specs of Powertech/Vanguard. I don't have an Operative/Scoundrel so I can't speak to how they are doing but they put up decent numbers (I believe I've *heard* that Concealment/Scrapper isn't all that great?). Those are all things that need to be fixed, yes, but save for Shadow/Assassins there is no "skill requirement" to make the class competitive.

I would even admit that if a Marauder/Sentinel or Sniper/Gunslinger in 69 gear could out DPS on a boss a hybrid DPS in 72/75 gear that *that* was broken (assuming players of equal skill) because the gap between the classes should not be *that* large. And its not! I have a Sorcerer friend who is in mostly 75s with some 72s mixed-in and she absolutely spanks my mostly 72 with some 69s mixed in Marauder. And that makes sense because she is in *significantly* better gear than me, but that wasn't always the case: back before she started raiding on that character and her Sorcerer and my Marauder were evenly geared, I kicked *her* butt. Now that she has better gear, the scales have shifted even though there hasn't been any change in player skill or class, simply in gear. That *is* the definition of class balance.

I'm really baffled as to why people think that a class that can effectively prevent a wipe simply by using abilities not in their normal rotation would not be more valuable than a class that cannot. Its insane.
55 Mercenary { Drekevac } rDPS || 55 Marauder { Kryu } mDPS
55 Sorcerer { Jahaerys } Heal
55 Juggernaut { Caryu } Tank || 55 Assassin { Vellys } Tank

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
08.12.2013 , 11:23 AM | #16
I primarily raid on a Pyro/AP PT and a Madness (sometimes lightning) sorc. I certainly HAVE used a taunt-and-cooldown on a tank death, or popped a heal or some bubbles on the sorc.

However, my contention is that the utility gained by using those abilities is no greater than the utility gained by a marauder using bloodthirst/predation to help the group, or a sniper using ballistic shield to help his group. They would certainly be used at different times and for different reasons, but that's why there's different classes in the game.


As to the question of why would you bring marauders and snipers to raids if everyone did equal dps? The answer is simple. You'd bring them because they offer a different kind of raid utility, and MORE importantly, because people in your raid enjoy playing those classes.

Marauders and snipers have more raid utility abilities than "hybrid" specs, precisely because they do not have the utility brought by off-heals and off-tanking. The balance is utility for utility, not utility for damage.

In any case, this entire discussion is somewhat pointless, as the devs have stated on numerous occasions that there is not intended to be any hybrid tax.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.13.2013 , 03:41 PM | #17
For PVE, I have to agree that, with the exception of DPS shadows, we're probably down to just QoL stuff. Since I main commando, my main beef there is the extremely tight ammo management. Fix that and commandos really will put up similar numbers to gunslingers.

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I do appreciate that you have great experience in NiM raids, but the benefits of bringing more than one armor debuff seems dubious. They patched it so they don't stack way back. If you have a guardian tank (and almost all progression groups run with at least one Guardian tank), the utility of bringing a Gunnery Commando or Guardian DPS for their debuff is redundant.
Yes and no. On council fights having a Guardian tank doesn't guarantee the debuff is on the main raid target. This is most noticeable on the Cartel Warlords, but Writhing Horror to some extent (the Jealous Males), the Dread Guard, TFB herself, and especially Operator IX benefit greatly from having DPS capable of applying the debuffs since your tanks can be, and often enough are, busy elsewhere. Gunnery Commando is by far the most useful here because not only is it in rotation, but it is completely spammable unlike the Jugg debuff (or even the sniper one, though that has a lower cooldown).

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Fact stands that every fight has an enrage mechanic. Every fight is a DPS check, and what really matters is how much blood DPS can squeeze from the stone. I am sure that it's possible to do NiM content without the most optimal class combination is possible, but I am unconvinced of equity between the DPS classes.
Some fights are bigger DPS checks than others. Sometimes you really don't need to squeeze THAT much blood from the stone. No one is saying that all DPS are truly created equally, but the question is are fights significantly harder with one setup over another. The only time I really see that is when you stack melee, which by the way is the only possible justification I feel exists for some DPS to do more than others. Melee SHOULD have a higher potential than ranged because of all the nasty things associated with being melee.

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To your earlier point of dummy DPS parses only measuring sustained damage on bosses, I am struggling to remember any fights that don't have long stretches of DPS. The ramp up time for Vigilance Guardians, for example, is about 15 seconds. And 90% of all fights give you at least 15 second windows for DPS. I don't see the benefit of taking Focus over that for the rare exceptions.
Ramp up time for Vig Guardian is way lower than 15 seconds O.o. Anyway his point isn't that sustained damage isn't important, but there's no denying that many fights currently care way more about your ability to deliver very high DPS in a 30 second to 1 minute window rather than your ability to maintain high DPS for 6-10 minutes. The distinction is very important. That being said, I also agree that outside of high AoE situations, it's better to take Vig over Focus for Guardian DPS.

Now that isn't to say that sustained isn't important. KBN himself has admitted that as nice as Infil Burst is, its sustained is still too low to justify it. Their sustained DPS should arguably be lower for such awesome burst potential, but not THAT much lower.

This is all just PVE of course. In PVP burst is absolute king.

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Why is it complete ********? The fact is that a Marauder/Sentinel or a Sniper/Gunslinger has only the utility abilities of the AC and their DPS. Every other class has their own utility abilities AND the ability to off-heal/off-tank in a bad situation which in-and-of-itself makes them more desirable. If all DPS were truly and completely equalized there would be no reason for a Pure DPS class in an Operation simply because under no circumstance is their utility greater than being able to temporarily fill in for a Healer or Tank. All of the max level toons listed in my signature are in HMs frequently (and NiM when my work schedule permits) and I fill all possible roles on all of them, so don't mistake me for a Marauder who loves his pretty big numbers and is so terrified someone will outdps me. I *truly* believe that Hybrid ACs should be slightly lower for the same reason that Rage/Focus should have lower single-target DPS than Annihilation/Watchman and Carnage/Combat: If it were equalized you would remove any need for the others.
You're entitled to your belief but you are wrong. A DPS MUST be able to justify their spot in the raid solely on their ability to do damage. If the boss can't do down because you couldn't output the damage, then your utility is worthless. Once you can down the boss utility definitely matters, but you always act like snipers and maras don't have very good, and unique, utility. Inspiration (Sent), Transcendence (Sent, useful for only some fights), raid heals (watchman sent), baseline root (sniper, only useful in like one fight), armor break(sniper), and the big raid shield (sniper) are all incredibly useful utility. Indeed, whatever you might want to say about off heals or off taunts, the "pure" DPS classes' utility is consistently better overall, and more importantly is unique. That is what's supposed to offset other classes' ability to offheal or off tank. Not their damage. If they DIDN'T have that utility I'd agree with you, but they do.

Your comparison to focus is truly apples and oranges for that reason. Again, if Snipers and Maras had no utility of their own you'd have a point, but they have very good utility. In fact they have very good utility that you actually PLAN on using and fit into your strategy, rather than things you have on your bars "just in case". The only non-sniper non-mara utility I ever PLAN on needing, rather than having just in case, are in rotation armor breaks, and mezzes for trash pulls.

For those reasons, no, pure DPS classes should not inherently do significantly more damage than the so-called "hybrid" DPS classes.
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Edit: As to the idea that there is such a thing as a "full dps" spec for the "hybrid" ACs, does that mean you have never put points into a tank/heal tree? I know for Sorc/Sages, Merc/Mandos, Jugg/Guards, Sin/Shads, PT/VGs, and Op/Scoun its very helpful to put at least a few points in their respective tank/heal tree. Unless you are putting 0 points in the tank/heal tree then you're not "full dps".
You have to know how dumb an argument that is. You put points in the tank/healing tree because there are very good DPS talents in the first tier. I can't think of any class which specs DPS but puts points in a tank or healing tree specifically to make them tank or heal better.

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I have personally successfully (meaning the boss went down, not necessarily that I survived) Vengeance tanked, Arsenal Healed, and Lightning healed HM Op bosses. Whether or not the healing/tanking abilities are in your rotation, you have them and *should* use them when poop hits the fan just as a Marauder should use Undying Rage or a Sniper should use Sniper Shield. Heck I've even done *strategies* that use hybrid classes' innate off-specs to down bosses. How is that not utility?
Please detail those strategies for me. Then also detail how the boss would not have been just as downable with a pure DPS class without the ability to off tank or off heal. Utility only when crap hits the fan is nice, but utility that is useful whether the crap hits the fan or not is better. If anything, classes that can off-heal or off-tank should do more damage just because their utility will not be used as a group grows more comfortable with a boss, whereas I will always call for an inspiration at the right time whether the crap hits the fan or not.

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I have seen *a lot* of people claim that on this fight or on that fight you absolutely need to bring only this class or only that class or that this class is mathematically impossible to do that fight with and its simply not true. There is currently no benefit to stacking any single class because of the way each ACs utility plays off of each others. The only class that this is not entirely true for at the moment is Shadow/Assassin DPS because frankly unless the player is of an amazing calibre, they will not come anywhere near even mediocre players of other classes and *that* is unbalanced. Mercenary/Commando Arsenal/Gunnery and Sorcerer/Sage Madness/Balance resource management is pretty broken as well, to be honest (not to mention Pyrotech/Assault). As are the true DPS specs of Powertech/Vanguard. I don't have an Operative/Scoundrel so I can't speak to how they are doing but they put up decent numbers (I believe I've *heard* that Concealment/Scrapper isn't all that great?). Those are all things that need to be fixed, yes, but save for Shadow/Assassins there is no "skill requirement" to make the class competitive.
I am in pretty much full agreement with this, and I feel that need to be stated. Careful though, you just admitted that a shadows ability to off tank isn't good enough to off set their inherently lower DPS. The other DPS classes honestly probably would do a lot better simply by fixing their resource management to not be as tight. I'd also mention that Lightning Sorc and Gunnery Commando (moreso lightning sorc) suffer quite annoyingly from pushback which should also be fixed. Like I said though, everything but shadow is actually almost there. Just minor QoL stuff.

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I would even admit that if a Marauder/Sentinel or Sniper/Gunslinger in 69 gear could out DPS on a boss a hybrid DPS in 72/75 gear that *that* was broken (assuming players of equal skill) because the gap between the classes should not be *that* large. And its not! I have a Sorcerer friend who is in mostly 75s with some 72s mixed-in and she absolutely spanks my mostly 72 with some 69s mixed in Marauder. And that makes sense because she is in *significantly* better gear than me, but that wasn't always the case: back before she started raiding on that character and her Sorcerer and my Marauder were evenly geared, I kicked *her* butt. Now that she has better gear, the scales have shifted even though there hasn't been any change in player skill or class, simply in gear. That *is* the definition of class balance.
What if I told you that my 69 (in some cases 66) geared sniper out DPSed my BiS 72 geared commando? Also what happens if your mara gets 75s and absolutely spanks her sorc again? Also you can't honestly tell me that she hasn't almost surely gotten better.

Here though, we get to one of the few utilities that actually matter: Range. Ranged DPS should have a slightly (very slightly) lower damage potential because of how much benefit you bring a raid just being able to DPS from 30-35 meters.

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I'm really baffled as to why people think that a class that can effectively prevent a wipe simply by using abilities not in their normal rotation would not be more valuable than a class that cannot. Its insane.
You act like Inspirations ability to help burn through soft enrages or the ballistic dampner's ability to help a raid WEATHER a soft enrage isn't unable to prevent a wipe. You also act like just because once in a blue moon off heals CAN prevent a wipe means they always will. There is a very VERY small window indeed where a mistake is both wipe inducing AND saveable from off heals or off taunts. Often if a wipe happens, it's gonna happen no matter what off heals go out. Not only that but off heals are almost universally resource heavy, lack serious potency, and if they are needed too much are just as likely to cause a wipe because the off healers have run themselves dry. This is especially true for gunnery commandos and balance sages who by your own admission are already resource starved at times just from DPSing.

Yes I've off healed and gotten a recovery on my commando. I've also off healed on my commando and still had a wipe happen. I've ALSO had many MANY fights where it was never necessary to throw an off heal at all. If we have a sent though, I never have a fight where I DON'T call for an inspire.

TL;DR:
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As to the question of why would you bring marauders and snipers to raids if everyone did equal dps? The answer is simple. You'd bring them because they offer a different kind of raid utility, and MORE importantly, because people in your raid enjoy playing those classes.

Marauders and snipers have more raid utility abilities than "hybrid" specs, precisely because they do not have the utility brought by off-heals and off-tanking. The balance is utility for utility, not utility for damage.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

KurtDunn's Avatar


KurtDunn
08.13.2013 , 05:39 PM | #18
I'd just like to take a moment to thank Archangel for his long and thoughtful reply. People like you are reasons why the Torums are still worth going to.

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
08.14.2013 , 01:23 AM | #19
That post is so excellent archangel, that I'm not even going to bother quoting it to say so. Pretty well encapsulated my exact feelings on the subject.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
08.14.2013 , 09:39 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
You're entitled to your belief but you are wrong. A DPS MUST be able to justify their spot in the raid solely on their ability to do damage. If the boss can't do down because you couldn't output the damage, then your utility is worthless. Once you can down the boss utility definitely matters, but you always act like snipers and maras don't have very good, and unique, utility. Inspiration (Sent), Transcendence (Sent, useful for only some fights), raid heals (watchman sent), baseline root (sniper, only useful in like one fight), armor break(sniper), and the big raid shield (sniper) are all incredibly useful utility. Indeed, whatever you might want to say about off heals or off taunts, the "pure" DPS classes' utility is consistently better overall, and more importantly is unique. That is what's supposed to offset other classes' ability to offheal or off tank. Not their damage. If they DIDN'T have that utility I'd agree with you, but they do.
Your argument falls down simply based on the fact that (ignoring shadow/sin DPS which I will get to in a bit) there is no fight that even vaguely requires the DPS put out by a Pure DPS class. The biggest DPS check right now is NiM Dread Guard and every class that can DPS can easily (still ignoring shadow/sin) put out the 2400 DPS required. Most are significantly above that. Inspiration/BT, as pointed out by KBN, is actually MASSIVELY over-rated in terms of its actual contribution. Trans/Pred? In order to use that we have to build 30 stacks of fury and then waste them for raid utility; it is actually very bad for our DPS to not Berserk/Zen on CD is all specs (which by the way, if we aren't doing in Watchman/Anni, we're not providing the raid heals, which are minuscule). Snipers Armor debuff can be brought by yourself and Guardian/Juggs, so that is pretty redundant and irrelevant since so many other classes can bring the debuff. I have never even partly, slightly, maybe argued that Marauder's CDs aren't very useful but I do think people need to understand that aside from Force Camo (which is one of the best threat drop mechanics in the game; Threat drop, Damage Reduction, Invis, and speed buff) they all come at a heavy price. Inspiration/BT prevents ourselves and other Marauders from building Fury which is a big DPS loss because it delays our next Berserk/Zen. Its a useful trade-off though because it boosts everyone's DPS at the expense of some of our own personal DPS. Predation has extremely limited utility at the expense of wasting a minute building fury, spending it to speed every one up and then having to build it again. Undying Rage gives us effectively 5 seconds of immunity at the expense of 50% of our health, great trade-off assuming you are going to get healed right back up but unless you are using it to cheese a mechanic, chances are you aren't going to get the heals meaning you are going to die when it ends. Its a delay.

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Your comparison to focus is truly apples and oranges for that reason. Again, if Snipers and Maras had no utility of their own you'd have a point, but they have very good utility. In fact they have very good utility that you actually PLAN on using and fit into your strategy, rather than things you have on your bars "just in case". The only non-sniper non-mara utility I ever PLAN on needing, rather than having just in case, are in rotation armor breaks, and mezzes for trash pulls.
As stated above, your assumption that I was even beginning to state that Sniper/Mara utility has no utility is false. They have decent utility but, aside from Sniper Shield, it either comes at a cost or is redundant. Here is a better example: If you were buying a car and could buy one that was really fast or one that was just as fast and had great fuel economy, why would you ever buy the one that didn't have great fuel economy? Snipers and Maras have utility but it is NOT in ANY WAY enough to truly change the outcome of a raid, whereas Hybrid DPS classes CAN. Plain and simple.


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You have to know how dumb an argument that is. You put points in the tank/healing tree because there are very good DPS talents in the first tier. I can't think of any class which specs DPS but puts points in a tank or healing tree specifically to make them tank or heal better.
Now you're just being ridiculous. You cut out the next two words of the quote just to make it seem like I was an idiot.

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Facetiousness aside
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Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor
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If anything, classes that can off-heal or off-tank should do more damage just because their utility will not be used as a group grows more comfortable with a boss, whereas I will always call for an inspiration at the right time whether the crap hits the fan or not.
Why would we be arguing about non-progression raiding? There is no reason to be even slightly worried about DPS differences in non-progression raiding so your point about the drop-off of utility is irrelevant. Again, Sniper/Mara utility cannot affect the outcome of a raid. It can increase QoL and nothing more.

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Careful though, you just admitted that a shadows ability to off tank isn't good enough to off set their inherently lower DPS.
I admitted that for the simple fact that its true. Shadow DPS is in a bad place and I have said that freely in multiple places.

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What if I told you that my 69 (in some cases 66) geared sniper out DPSed my BiS 72 geared commando?
I would seriously and honestly question whether or not you should be playing your commando. Unless you are talking about purely fluff AoE damage, in which case your point is irrelevant and simply there to be argumentative.

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Also what happens if your mara gets 75s and absolutely spanks her sorc again? Also you can't honestly tell me that she hasn't almost surely gotten better.
I'm confused what your point here is. I specifically stated that pure DPS should do better DPS so if our gear were equal then I absolutely believe I should do more DPS. She agrees. Your point here is irrelevant. Also, I can absolutely assure you the increase in skill is irrelevant. The only reason she has better gear than me is that my work schedule prevents me from raiding consistently and I refuse to take gear from regular raiders. When I am available I raid with her group which invalidates the skill argument.

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You act like Inspirations ability to help burn through soft enrages or the ballistic dampner's ability to help a raid WEATHER a soft enrage isn't unable to prevent a wipe. You also act like just because once in a blue moon off heals CAN prevent a wipe means they always will. There is a very VERY small window indeed where a mistake is both wipe inducing AND saveable from off heals or off taunts. Often if a wipe happens, it's gonna happen no matter what off heals go out. Not only that but off heals are almost universally resource heavy, lack serious potency, and if they are needed too much are just as likely to cause a wipe because the off healers have run themselves dry. This is especially true for gunnery commandos and balance sages who by your own admission are already resource starved at times just from DPSing.

Yes I've off healed and gotten a recovery on my commando. I've also off healed on my commando and still had a wipe happen. I've ALSO had many MANY fights where it was never necessary to throw an off heal at all. If we have a sent though, I never have a fight where I DON'T call for an inspire.
First off, lets address the DPS issue: Pure Balance/Maddess does not have resource issues except in PvP where they cannot consistently cast and fully channel Force Lightning. Gunnery/Assault on the other hand, DOES have significant resource issues but only if played incorrectly. If you manage your resources you can and will do great DPS and have enough to throw Kolto Missile/Bomb down once in awhile (something you should be doing anyways).

Second, when did I ever state or even insinuate that offtank/heals would always save a raid? I said their ability to do so was more desirable because it is a fact that if poop hits the fan an off healer/tank will be able to do more than a shield or a BT/Inspiration. Your entire argument is based around the fallacy that I was somehow claiming that having offheal/tank is an autowin which is simply ridiculous.

Further the argument that BW has stated all DPS should be equal is flat out wrong. They have stated that they should be within 5% of each other. Maybe all of you are so butthurt because you wrongly assume that I am arguing for a 10% or greater difference. In general, all dps classes can put out at least 2900 DPS and putting aside fluff damage Snipers/Maras are putting out 3100. Thats JUST over 5%. If you really think thats unfair then absolutely buff the other classes so they can hit 2945 because that is 5%.

If you are looking at dummy parses and seeing the huge numbers and NOT looking into it to see whether that is single-target, non-buffed (meaning not affected by outside mechanics like the damage boost on Kephess) then you simply should not be adding to the discussion because people who are just worried about whether or not they are getting bigger numbers than other people are what is and has always been wrong with MMOs. The only thing I truly care about in a raid is whether or not the boss goes down. DPS meters are great for inspiring friendly competition as well as allowing a player to see where they can improve. This and the threads like it end up being filled with people who just want to see bigger numbers and are angry that another class hits harder than them not because of any affect that has on killing bosses but rather on their own ego.
55 Mercenary { Drekevac } rDPS || 55 Marauder { Kryu } mDPS
55 Sorcerer { Jahaerys } Heal
55 Juggernaut { Caryu } Tank || 55 Assassin { Vellys } Tank