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Sentinels - Top 3 Questions

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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.05.2013 , 11:09 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Chickensevil View Post
This might* make a difference if you are considering your top dps gaining 10% (which a mar/sent should be on top or pretty close) since 10% of say 2600 is 260, which is quite a jump for a single person's numbers. But 10% on say a tank dps... I doubt that would make a huge difference.
10% on either of our tanks would be another 120 DPS. That's 52800 damage over the course of the entire DG fight, which is 4% of Kel'sara's pre-nerf HP. When your raid group is literally to the point of leveling agents to get Ambrosia Orbs, killing Nightmare Pilgrim with the lockout debuff and dropping Cybertech grenades at scripted points, 120 DPS sounds like gold.

Quote: Originally Posted by Chickensevil View Post
But that is also NOT an AOE fight... so if someone is trying to be the best player for their team, then they would be trying to do the best single target damage. I don't think it is unfair to have a spec that excels at AOE. Last round this might have been helpful on Kephass in EC (1 fight out of 4 is not bad for an all dps class with 3 spec's). In this round there are a decent number of ADD fights, so again, I don't think it is unfair to the spec to have a few fights that it excels at. If you are trying to be the best, you are going to switch inbetween fights.
There are very, very few fights where AoE seriously matters in the current endgame. Dash'roode is basically the only one. For the other fights, a couple of XS Flyby drops is enough to nuke the adds without any real attention. I wouldn't mind Focus being behind in the single-target DPS department if the content design emphasized AoE burst moments as much as it emphasizes single-target sustained DPS. This isn't the case though, which is why I feel that Focus isn't in a particularly good place w.r.t. PvE.
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CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
08.05.2013 , 12:51 PM | #22
Problem is tho that if they give it an outright damage buff then people will call for nerfs(not that they aren't already) they already added force lash which helps a bit sure, but what else could they possibly add to help out? Make MS give centering like TST and lower smash CD as well? That would help allittle without actually increasing damage sure, but not by much

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.05.2013 , 01:02 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by CJNJ View Post
Problem is tho that if they give it an outright damage buff then people will call for nerfs(not that they aren't already) they already added force lash which helps a bit sure, but what else could they possibly add to help out? Make MS give centering like TST and lower smash CD as well? That would help allittle without actually increasing damage sure, but not by much
I think there are a couple ways to do it. Increasing the damage of Force Lash is one way, but a bit heavy-handed. Reducing the CD on Master Strike (or building a proc to the same effect) I think is a fairly solid way, since that additionally increases the average time between Force Sweeps (lowering AoE DPS by a slight amount). A talent to increase the damage dealt by Blade Storm might not be a bad approach, but it would result in a significant buff to burst, which is perhaps not desirable.

Also, despite my protestations, I do agree that buffing the ST damage of Focus spec is really dangerous, because it becomes a spec that does the most ST and AoE DPS and has the best defensive CDs. The obvious counter here is the fact that Guardian Focus does almost exactly as much DPS as Guardian Vig. If Guardians get an AoE spec which does as much ST damage as their ST spec, then why do Sentinels get gimped in this area?
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.05.2013 , 01:37 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I think there are a couple ways to do it. Increasing the damage of Force Lash is one way, but a bit heavy-handed. Reducing the CD on Master Strike (or building a proc to the same effect) I think is a fairly solid way, since that additionally increases the average time between Force Sweeps (lowering AoE DPS by a slight amount). A talent to increase the damage dealt by Blade Storm might not be a bad approach, but it would result in a significant buff to burst, which is perhaps not desirable.

Also, despite my protestations, I do agree that buffing the ST damage of Focus spec is really dangerous, because it becomes a spec that does the most ST and AoE DPS and has the best defensive CDs. The obvious counter here is the fact that Guardian Focus does almost exactly as much DPS as Guardian Vig. If Guardians get an AoE spec which does as much ST damage as their ST spec, then why do Sentinels get gimped in this area?

That seems more like an argument for buffing Vig over buffing focus. As you say, a 10% boost to ST damage can only make it even more OP in PVP, and in general would serve to even further deter watchman use. I'll also note that with a few exceptions the AoE Sniper/Gunslinger tree also falls pretty far behind their single target damage specs.

Giving up single target damage is the price you pay for getting awesome AoE damage. It'd be another matter entirely if Focus was the only good DPS spec, but sentinels have 3 of them, and there ARE the odd fights where Focus shines even in PVE while it's pretty much the goto spec in PVP.
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BARSAL's Avatar


BARSAL
08.05.2013 , 01:41 PM | #25
It may not be in the top 3 questions but I would like to know if Bioware plans on making combat rotation more fluid again and/or make the burst phases more controlable/predictable. It feels like focus spec before the first buff which made the rotation much more fluid.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
08.05.2013 , 02:28 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
That seems more like an argument for buffing Vig over buffing focus. As you say, a 10% boost to ST damage can only make it even more OP in PVP, and in general would serve to even further deter watchman use. I'll also note that with a few exceptions the AoE Sniper/Gunslinger tree also falls pretty far behind their single target damage specs.
In PvE, Vig is pretty competitive. It really shouldn't be buffed. Guardian Focus is also competitive in single-target DPS, which is a concern primarily because Sentinel Focus is not.

Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Giving up single target damage is the price you pay for getting awesome AoE damage.
Really? I can get awesome AoE as a hybrid sniper without falling even a single step behind pure Marksman for single-target damage. Balance shadow has a lot more AoE damage than infiltration, and also slightly *higher* single-target DPS. Tactics vanguard has far better AoE than Assault, but generally slightly lower single-target damage (especially pre-2.0).

Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
It'd be another matter entirely if Focus was the only good DPS spec, but sentinels have 3 of them, and there ARE the odd fights where Focus shines even in PVE while it's pretty much the goto spec in PVP.
Imagine if Gunnery had some glaring weakness that prevented you from using it on all bosses and you were forced to use Assault. The three sentinel specs are very, very different from each other, almost to the point of being different classes. Everyone should be allowed to play the spec they want to play in any environment to a level of viability close to the mean (say, 5%) such that their viability penalties on some bosses are balanced against the viability penalties of other specs on other bosses (so that all specs are penalized and advantaged equally when averaged across all content). This is the definition of balance. As things currently stand, competitive PvPers cannot play Watchman without being unduly penalized, and competitive PvEers cannot play Focus without being unduly penalized. The bosses for which Focus has an advantage are far fewer than the bosses for which Watchman or Combat has an advantage, and the advantages are very pronounced. This is why I say that things are not balanced in their current form.

Quote: Originally Posted by BARSAL View Post
It may not be in the top 3 questions but I would like to know if Bioware plans on making combat rotation more fluid again and/or make the burst phases more controlable/predictable. It feels like focus spec before the first buff which made the rotation much more fluid.
Combat actually has a fairly fluid rotation, and the burst windows are rigidly predictable. The only real problem is the fact that Opportune Attack may not proc in time for this window, and Hand of Justice may not proc exactly on schedule (giving some variance to the tail half of the window). These are issues, I think, but they aren't that severe. The rotation itself feels extremely solid to me, though certainly less rhythmic and uniform than the pre-2.0 rotation.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
08.05.2013 , 04:15 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
That seems more like an argument for buffing Vig over buffing focus. As you say, a 10% boost to ST damage can only make it even more OP in PVP, and in general would serve to even further deter watchman use. I'll also note that with a few exceptions the AoE Sniper/Gunslinger tree also falls pretty far behind their single target damage specs.

Giving up single target damage is the price you pay for getting awesome AoE damage. It'd be another matter entirely if Focus was the only good DPS spec, but sentinels have 3 of them, and there ARE the odd fights where Focus shines even in PVE while it's pretty much the goto spec in PVP.
More burst will make it OP. not ST damage. As a bad example in the skill tree maybe ADD a new talent in T7 that puts a dot on smash. Switch focused resonance and force health. Pretty much you gotta have 38/39 points in focus in order to get the skill. Pve can prob do this, pvp allittle harder.

That's my bad stab at it, I'm sure others can get a better solution

MarkXXIV's Avatar


MarkXXIV
08.05.2013 , 04:45 PM | #28
Rage isn't overpowered, just that many non sniper dps specs are underpowered.
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CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
08.05.2013 , 05:11 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by MarkXXIV View Post
Rage isn't overpowered, just that many non sniper dps specs are underpowered.
The conversation is rage is underpowered in pve I think...

Chickensevil's Avatar


Chickensevil
08.06.2013 , 07:59 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
10% on either of our tanks would be another 120 DPS. That's 52800 damage over the course of the entire DG fight, which is 4% of Kel'sara's pre-nerf HP. When your raid group is literally to the point of leveling agents to get Ambrosia Orbs, killing Nightmare Pilgrim with the lockout debuff and dropping Cybertech grenades at scripted points, 120 DPS sounds like gold.
Didn't realize your tanks were getting that much damage out on Heriad on phase 1 and Cephass phase 2, (real dps, minus their wasted damage being done to maintain threat on their real tank targets). So I guess I could see this being a decent boost.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
There are very, very few fights where AoE seriously matters in the current endgame. Dash'roode is basically the only one. For the other fights, a couple of XS Flyby drops is enough to nuke the adds without any real attention. I wouldn't mind Focus being behind in the single-target DPS department if the content design emphasized AoE burst moments as much as it emphasizes single-target sustained DPS. This isn't the case though, which is why I feel that Focus isn't in a particularly good place w.r.t. PvE.
Ok, but if you say a "couple XS Flyby drops" would indicate that you have 2 snipers in your group. In 16, the adds just won't die with two... so I assume you mean 8 man... which either highlights how overpowered snipers really are in current content or that you are assuming everyone runs with 2 snipers (most likely because they are really overpowered...)

If your group does not have these snipers then SOMEONE needs to pick up the AOE. Your class has an answer to that dilemma. I speak from the flip side of this coin, since they felt obligated to give Pyro PT/Assault Trooper more AOE... in the process they had to nerf our primary dot (which was getting spread out to the adds thanks to the mechanics change) because it would be too "OP". This dot used to be our highest dps contribution to a fight sitting around 30% or more of our damage... they cut this damage in half.

My tale of caution and fear, if you get what you are requesting, Focus gets a buff to single target. You will most likely see your AOE drop dramatically... which will completely REMOVE any hope of you having a spec at all that can AOE.

Right now, any fight that has AOE, if you are not spec'd Focus you might as well just leave the adds alone because it is a waste of time and effort. Dash'rode, Titan 6, Writhing Horror, Phase 2 Operator, Thrasher, Phase 1 Operations Chief (technically they could change spec's between phase 1 and the start of the real fight if you are quick enough and drop combat... I'll give you that is a stretch though claiming importance for this fight). At least 5/12 fights where AOE adds are rather important... Trust me, my Flamethrower loves these add fights and is the only reason I am able to sustain higher dps numbers on most fights given how badly the PT/Trooper were gimped. So don't fool yourself into thinking that the adds are unimportant.

You just seem to be in a group that can afford to let you stay on the boss and single target, letting others pick up the AOE slack that you are leaving behind. If that is the case, that is fine, your group is adapting to your current composition. But suppose you didn't have two snipers for your 8 man... then what?
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