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The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
08.03.2013 , 09:15 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well lets go one at at time first. We know for one that Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel before reaching his prime. But was he aided by Leia in that duel? Considering the fact that Sidious defeated him before hand.
Yes, but we also know that he got better as time progressed, by the time he was Grandmaster he far outstripped Sidious or anyone else for that matter. In the Thrawn trilogy he reflects an ATAT's blasters despite being in a pocket were the force did not exist, this was shear skill (I think he also poisoned as well). He learnt all that Sidious did, and by the time he rebuilds the order could have outfought two Sidious's at once IMO.

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
The book states clearly that they were equal but Windu being a better tactician forced him onto the ledge, Sidious' only advantage in this battle was a ludicrous amount of Force Speed to keep up, once he was forced into concentrating on not flying out the window, by redirecting his force energy, he slowed down and then got a boot-print in his face.

Windu won the duel fair and square, it was quite obviously afterwards, when Anakin was actually there that Sidious put on the charade, Sidious could have killed him any time with Force Lightning as Windu's blade bent back towards his face so much that he was barely holding on and was choking on ozone fumes.

It is clear to me that Windu beat Sidious in that duel, the feigning part didn't come till afterwards.

Also, whilst sparring engagements are good tests of skill, I think against a Sith Windu will always be superior to Yoda during a duel, Vaapad clearly made the difference for Windu in that duel, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar dropped like flies, Fisto performed slightly better but that's likely due to his balanced fighting style. Whereas Vaapad clearly kept Windu alive.

Against each other? perhaps Yoda is superior in a way, but in actual lightsaber duels, Windu would perform better against the Sith, which frankly is all that matters.
Ok, fair enough.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
08.03.2013 , 09:17 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
The book states clearly that they were equal but Windu being a better tactician forced him onto the ledge, Sidious' only advantage in this battle was a ludicrous amount of Force Speed to keep up, once he was forced into concentrating on not flying out the window, by redirecting his force energy, he slowed down and then got a boot-print in his face.

Windu won the duel fair and square, it was quite obviously afterwards, when Anakin was actually there that Sidious put on the charade, Sidious could have killed him any time with Force Lightning as Windu's blade bent back towards his face so much that he was barely holding on and was choking on ozone fumes.

It is clear to me that Windu beat Sidious in that duel, the feigning part didn't come till afterwards.

Also, whilst sparring engagements are good tests of skill, I think against a Sith Windu will always be superior to Yoda during a duel, Vaapad clearly made the difference for Windu in that duel, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar dropped like flies, Fisto performed slightly better but that's likely due to his balanced fighting style. Whereas Vaapad clearly kept Windu alive.

Against each other? perhaps Yoda is superior in a way, but in actual lightsaber duels, Windu would perform better against the Sith, which frankly is all that matters.
Surely however that only proves they are equal? Mace Windu only won through superior tactical ability, and lets face it Sidious being a masterful tactician himself likely let him have that advantage, if that had never happened - the duel would have gone on indefinitely. This itself is stated in the novel.

And how does Vaapad play into this? Could it not be said that Windu's ability to draw on Sidious' dark side energies was the only reason he was able to stand up to his incredible lightsaber skills. Let's remember that Windu was not nearly as impressive against Jedi, no way would Windu have been able to defeat all three of those Jedi Council members as quickly as Sidious did.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
08.03.2013 , 09:19 AM | #13
Something for Windu's Vader-esque endurance can be said to support him.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
08.03.2013 , 09:19 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by AlexDougherty View Post
Yes, but we also know that he got better as time progressed, by the time he was Grandmaster he far outstripped Sidious or anyone else for that matter. In the Thrawn trilogy he reflects an ATAT's blasters despite being in a pocket were the force did not exist, this was shear skill (I think he also poisoned as well). He learnt all that Sidious did, and by the time he rebuilds the order could have outfought two Sidious's at once IMO.
Very true, I'm just seeking more information of those engagements. It would actually help us gauge Sidious ability as well - remembering Sidious became all the more powerful after his resurrection, and likely a better duelist.

But I certainly support Luke Skywalker for #1.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
08.03.2013 , 09:26 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Surely however that only proves they are equal? Mace Windu only won through superior tactical ability, and lets face it Sidious being a masterful tactician himself likely let him have that advantage, if that had never happened - the duel would have gone on indefinitely. This itself is stated in the novel.

And how does Vaapad play into this? Could it not be said that Windu's ability to draw on Sidious' dark side energies was the only reason he was able to stand up to his incredible lightsaber skills. Let's remember that Windu was not nearly as impressive against Jedi, no way would Windu have been able to defeat all three of those Jedi Council members as quickly as Sidious did.
I maintain, as seen in the Plagueis novel that Sidious was such a good duellist.... because he was exceptional at Force Speed, I think perhaps that his lightsaber skills may not be as good without it, his speed was so much that Tiin and Kolar didn't even register his attack, all they heard was a Sith Battle Cry before the first slice.

This certainly isn't canon, but it is my impression from the book, if the force, as in force attacks, had been kept out of it, they would have gone on for a long time, but I believe that Windu's stamina would have out-lasted Sidious' force energy reserves, he WOULD have slowed down, after that duel and after his engagement, both times he registers his dissatisfaction with his body, because he felt extremely exhausted and basically like an old man, I don't think Sidious could have out-lasted Windu with his speed and the moment that he does begin to slow down, he is done for, he HAS to fall back on his force prowess or he's dead.

Whether or not Sidious allowed him to is not clear, we know he is a master manipulator but how effective would that be in a high speed duel with one of the best duellists ever, he would have to lose his focus and concentration and I just do not believe that would be possible against a duellist of Windu's calibre.

Now could Windu defeat Tiin, Kolar and Fisto at once? no idea, but due to the fact that the Order made him the Master of the Order on the High Council, not Yoda, must signify something.
"The Empire is war made manifest. That is why it is perfect."
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
08.03.2013 , 09:30 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I maintain, as seen in the Plagueis novel that Sidious was such a good duellist.... because he was exceptional at Force Speed, I think perhaps that his lightsaber skills may not be as good without it, his speed was so much that Tiin and Kolar didn't even register his attack, all they heard was a Sith Battle Cry before the first slice.

This certainly isn't canon, but it is my impression from the book, if the force, as in force attacks, had been kept out of it, they would have gone on for a long time, but I believe that Windu's stamina would have out-lasted Sidious' force energy reserves, he WOULD have slowed down, after that duel and after his engagement, both times he registers his dissatisfaction with his body, because he felt extremely exhausted and basically like an old man, I don't think Sidious could have out-lasted Windu with his speed and the moment that he does begin to slow down, he is done for, he HAS to fall back on his force prowess or he's dead.

Whether or not Sidious allowed him to is not clear, we know he is a master manipulator but how effective would that be in a high speed duel with one of the best duellists ever, he would have to lose his focus and concentration and I just do not believe that would be possible against a duellist of Windu's calibre.

Now could Windu defeat Tiin, Kolar and Fisto at once? no idea, but due to the fact that the Order made him the Master of the Order on the High Council, not Yoda, must signify something.
Well if we strip away everything, Sidious' age doesn't come into it. Especially given the fact that he gained a youthful body after his death on Endor.

Much of his skill may be down to Force speed, but much of Windu's skill is down to Vaapad - which arguably negate one-another. And I feel if Windu had faced DE Sidious he would have lost.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
08.03.2013 , 09:33 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by QwibQwib View Post
From what I recall, Dooku was considered a very skilled duelist, rivaling Yoda and Windu.
Dooku is one of the greatest lightsaber duelists of all time. It would be wrong if he didn't make this list.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
08.03.2013 , 09:33 AM | #18
Duelists?

1. Grand Master Luke Skywalker
2. Mace Windu
3. Sideous
4. Malgus
5. Jaina Solo
6. Caedus
7. Anakin Solo
8. Obi-wan Kenobi
9. Darth Bane
10. Count Dooku

My top 10
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LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
08.03.2013 , 09:35 AM | #19
Well I am referring to the actual battle they had, I have no idea what difference it would have had in a duel for Prime Sidious.
"The Empire is war made manifest. That is why it is perfect."
Imperial Order

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
08.03.2013 , 09:36 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
Duelists?

1. Grand Master Luke Skywalker
2. Mace Windu
3. Sideous
4. Malgus
5. Jaina Solo
6. Caedus
7. Anakin Solo
8. Obi-wan Kenobi
9. Darth Bane
10. Count Dooku

My top 10
Top 10s are discouraged, the only reason I posted four earlier is because of how damn close those four could be.
"The Empire is war made manifest. That is why it is perfect."
Imperial Order