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- Official Operative Concerns Thread -

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Imperial Agent > Operative
- Official Operative Concerns Thread -

Morde_'s Avatar


Morde_
07.29.2013 , 07:48 PM | #1
Greetings, fellow Star Wars nerds!

First off I'd like to give a special thanks to all who voted. Even if you didn't vote for me, it's nice to see that there is still a large enough population of interested individuals to make this whole representative endeavour worthwhile. For those of you who are interested in who I am or where I play, a quick bio can be found here.

If you're disappointed that I was elected this position, I have some comforting words for you: it's not up to me to decide the 3 questions.

It's my task to engage the community, encourage discussion, provide my own personal insights, and ultimately procure 3 questions that the majority of us support. While my background is strictly PvP, I promise I know enough of the class to be able to understand and discuss PvE topics as well, though I will defer a lot of that trust to our resident PvE experts that frequent this board. Keep in mind that at least one of the questions must be PvE related, and at least one must be PvP related.

According to the questions schedule, we're due to present our questions on Friday, October 25. I'll admit that I'm a bit disappointed that this date is so far away, and notably after the proposed release of 2.4, but at least we'll have plenty of time for discussion.

That being said, let's get the ball rolling. I've been scoping through some of the already informative "Operative Concerns" threads on this board and have summarized some of the most common issues that have been discussed so far. Special thanks to MiralukaJedi, Racter, and others for putting a lot of this together.

PvP:
  • Seemingly the largest concern so far is the lack of defensive cooldowns and talents as DPS spec. Concealment and lethality simply don't provide the same survivability when compared to the other DPS advanced classes. I'll freely admit that if my rated team ever sees a DPS operative on the other team (very rare), we will always focus them down with ease.
  • Lack of an AoE damage reduction talent in a smasher's world.
  • Hidden Strike, one of our bread and butter abilities, is very weak. Hidden Strike requires preparation, stealth, and can only be used once or twice in a fight. In long, drawn out midfights, it is barely used. I find it completely unreasonable that Smash gets 100% chance to crit after every leap, yet our best opening move is not a guaranteed crit. Like I've said before, opening with a non-crit Hidden Strike is the most unsatisfying thing as a DPS operative in PvP. Suggestion: Allow for concealment operatives to use Hidden Strike while Sneak is active?
  • Energy management for concealment is very weak. I've noticed this as well when I play concealment in long, drawn out midfights that I'm often out of energy and auto-attacking with the occasional backstab while waiting for adrenaline rush to come back off cooldown.
  • PvP set bonuses for operatives all across the board are dreadful, to the point where many operatives (including myself) seek PvE bonuses. An extra second on infiltrate/evasion is weak. The PvE set bonuses are vastly superior to their PvP counterparts.
  • Concealment needs a tool that separates it from marauders. Let me make one thing clear, I'm perfectly fine with marauders having a higher damage output than concealment operatives. Marauders are a pure DPS class. They don't have the option to respec healing, or stealth and CC cap nodes, or anything like that. If someone chooses an advanced class who's only ability is to output damage, then they should be at the top of the charts. This goes for snipers as well. However, this means that concealment needs something else which makes them viable to bring. I've seen in many places, and I've suggested it as well, that concealment needs a strong healing debuff tied to one of its abilities. One of the major flaws in PvP these days is that the game is waaaay too tanky/healy. By introducing a strong healing debuff to concealment, it helps reduce the TTK (time-to-kill) in this very healy game, and it provides valuable justification to bring a concealment operative on the team, without making marauders cry about losing their spot as the king of melee DPS.

PvE:
  • The stealth detect mechanic destroys Concealment, as it leaves the operative unable to hidden strike. Being able to Hidden Strike out of stealth in certain scenarios (perhaps while sneak is active?) might be a reasonable solution to explore.
  • For weird mobs or orbs it can be hard to tell what part is the back. 360 backstab or a marker would be nice.

Both PvP and PvE:
  • For Lethality it is tricky to distinguish your dots from somebody else's. Note that this applies to HoTs as well. I've noticed when healing with another operative that it annoys me very much how I can't distinguish my HoTs from my partner's, when looking at raid frames. In addition, two or more lethality hinder each other by sucking up weakening blasts that could be used for Cull. Finally, operative's DoTs make CC difficult since they can only talent to not break their own CC. Suggestion: make raid frames more customizable (we know how much Bioware loves this sort of thing) so that our own HoTs and DoTs are distinguishable.
  • Overload Shot - What's up with an ability that costs a ludicrous amount of energy for little more damage than an auto-attack? Suggestion: Have overload shot grant TA (mostly for lethality ops who are getting kited and can't get the shiv off for a TA)
  • Meticulously Kept Blades (concealment tree) increases the critical bonus damage of Sever Tendon by 30%. This is just hilarious. Racter's suggestion: Add shiv and laceration to the surge bonus granted by the talent Meticulously Kept Blades.
  • The "going out of combat" mechanic is compeletly broken, it has always been, despite the changes they tried to make a while ago (I don't remember when exactly).
  • Talent for AoE or damage reduction while stunned.
  • Toxic Regulators needs to ignore all friendly sleep attacks.
  • Energy management across all 3 trees should be consistent.
  • Surprise surgery should be lower in the medicine tree, as it seems to benefit concealment more than it does for healers.

If you find that you strongly agree with any of these issues, or if you'd like to contribute a new issue, please post in this thread. I need to know what the majority feels are the most important issues, so make your voice heard. If you find that certain issues bother you more than others when you play, just say so, and I'll prioritize the most popular ones.

Thanks for reading, everyone. Feel free to post here, PM me, or find me ingame on The Bastion as Scold [I] or Scoldrel [R] if you have any sort of questions, comments, or are seeking operative advice. Let's try to keep discussion civil as best as we can. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this is just a game; we're all here to have fun.
Scold
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
I will also offer to duel your marauder, for any amount of money
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
i dont have cold feet. im just not going to give away $300 walking into an unwinnable situation.
Biggest welch in Bastion history.
carried by jonie

Morde_'s Avatar


Morde_
07.29.2013 , 07:49 PM | #2
Reserved in hopes of getting tons of ideas.
Scold
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
I will also offer to duel your marauder, for any amount of money
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
i dont have cold feet. im just not going to give away $300 walking into an unwinnable situation.
Biggest welch in Bastion history.
carried by jonie

snave's Avatar


snave
07.30.2013 , 12:18 AM | #3
Congratulations on winning the vote, I was speaking with Gudarz on the weekend about having you as our representative so I'm glad you got the spot.

I think you've covered the main areas that need to be addressed in your opening post however if these points aren't even going to be raised until October and after 2.4 I can't help but feel this whole exercise is a little redundant. We're looking at the best part of 4 months until the questions can even be asked, that makes little to no sense to me.

As a rabid concealment fan boy I'm glad to see you focusing on the rather glaring disadvantages the class has and from speaking with Gudarz he's assured me that it's also a spec you enjoy playing so fingers crossed in 4 months time when we can raise 3 points about the many issues this class has they'll then get them fixed some time within the following 6 months.

So hopefully in about a year I'll be able to play ranked with my guild.

I think you'll be coming on my show this Saturday so we can have a quick chat about it all then

kwakkwak's Avatar


kwakkwak
07.30.2013 , 12:38 AM | #4
I think both dps specs in regards to PVP are much better off then you give them credit. leth when played correctly loses in damg only to snipers and smashers. leth also can create tons of advantage by dotting up 2-4 targets at once to to give your smashers options for kills.

the issues i find that need to be addressed
1. dots breaking CC... id like either our talent make it so all CC isnt broken by out leth dots or give us something to "recall" our dots and perhaps gain a small energy gain or something.
2. conc needs a better energy flow. this can be resolved simply by looking at the costs of the attacks.
3. hidden strike usable during sneak or auto crit has to happen. or just improve the system for getting out of combat.
4. also expl probe usable by conc not crouched would be pretty nice.

we could def use some work but i do think a good player will always be able to make the specs work fine.

snave's Avatar


snave
07.30.2013 , 01:02 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by kwakkwak View Post
I think both dps specs in regards to PVP are much better off then you give them credit. leth when played correctly loses in damg only to snipers and smashers. leth also can create tons of advantage by dotting up 2-4 targets at once to to give your smashers options for kills.

the issues i find that need to be addressed
1. dots breaking CC... id like either our talent make it so all CC isnt broken by out leth dots or give us something to "recall" our dots and perhaps gain a small energy gain or something.
2. conc needs a better energy flow. this can be resolved simply by looking at the costs of the attacks.
3. hidden strike usable during sneak or auto crit has to happen. or just improve the system for getting out of combat.
4. also expl probe usable by conc not crouched would be pretty nice.

we could def use some work but i do think a good player will always be able to make the specs work fine.
This is flat out incorrect. Lethality is ineffective fluff damage, it's easily cleansed and easily healed through. The only way this type of damage is effective is when you have multiple instances of it stacking so for example a whole team with DOT based DPS to apply group wide pressure and then maybe 2 smashers to coordinate burst AOE. Suggesting lethality is viable in ranked quite amusing. Lethality has to be one of the most flattering specs in the game at the moment in terms of numbers vs performance.

Before some one links the video of the 6 lethality operatives and 2 snipers doing ranked, please understand that in that video they are not against a decent level of competition and they're also stacking DOT classes which is the only way it's going to be effective. Seriously, if lethality or concealment was at all viable you'd see of them in ranked teams.

Also suggesting that good players will make these specs works fine does have one small logical pitfall. There is a virtual 0% presence of concealment operatives in RWZ, if what you are saying is correct then that also means we have zero good players. You also need to understand the difference between making something work and balance, I can theoretically race against a F1 car in my VW Golf and if they're a really bad driver and I'm a brilliant driver then there's a chance I could win however that does not make it a balanced encounter.

Morde_'s Avatar


Morde_
07.30.2013 , 01:03 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
Congratulations on winning the vote, I was speaking with Gudarz on the weekend about having you as our representative so I'm glad you got the spot.

I think you've covered the main areas that need to be addressed in your opening post however if these points aren't even going to be raised until October and after 2.4 I can't help but feel this whole exercise is a little redundant. We're looking at the best part of 4 months until the questions can even be asked, that makes little to no sense to me.

As a rabid concealment fan boy I'm glad to see you focusing on the rather glaring disadvantages the class has and from speaking with Gudarz he's assured me that it's also a spec you enjoy playing so fingers crossed in 4 months time when we can raise 3 points about the many issues this class has they'll then get them fixed some time within the following 6 months.

So hopefully in about a year I'll be able to play ranked with my guild.

I think you'll be coming on my show this Saturday so we can have a quick chat about it all then
I actually really have a ton of fun as concealment. I play healing in rateds because it's the only viable tree, but if I could play concealment more, I'd love to.

Yeah I was a little bit disappointed too about having to wait til October... Arenas won't be addressed in time.

P.S I may or may not be out of town on Saturday, what time are you planning on doing things?
Scold
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
I will also offer to duel your marauder, for any amount of money
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
i dont have cold feet. im just not going to give away $300 walking into an unwinnable situation.
Biggest welch in Bastion history.
carried by jonie

snave's Avatar


snave
07.30.2013 , 01:11 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Morde_ View Post
P.S I may or may not be out of town on Saturday, what time are you planning on doing things?
Normal start time is 5pm GMT+1, this weeks show is going to be MVP and Nostrum so I think it would be fun if you could come along

Morde_'s Avatar


Morde_
07.30.2013 , 01:13 AM | #8
If my timezone math is correct, I should be able to make it, hopefully.
Scold
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
I will also offer to duel your marauder, for any amount of money
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
i dont have cold feet. im just not going to give away $300 walking into an unwinnable situation.
Biggest welch in Bastion history.
carried by jonie

snave's Avatar


snave
07.30.2013 , 02:00 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Morde_ View Post
If my timezone math is correct, I should be able to make it, hopefully.
I know there's a lot of people looking forward to hearing MVP's and ND's opinions on the state of PvP at the moment so I'm hoping you can make it too. And I promise not to chew your ear off about operatives.

That may be a lie.

Etrain's Avatar


Etrain
07.30.2013 , 07:19 AM | #10
PvE operative here. I'm at work so I'll make this quick and come back to this later....

What's the deal with overload shot? Shiv, lacerate, back stab, hidden strike, and orbital strike all work well together when you proper ally use adrenaline probe and stimulating boost. So in comes overload shot, it's like 17 energy and does a little bit more damage than an auto attack. I'm actually more inclined to drop to cover, auto shoot, then explosive probe still over an overload shot.

An operatives static damage boost to this ability implies they want us using it as a filler of sorts buts it's sooooooo weak.