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NERF : Guardian Tanks

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
NERF : Guardian Tanks

Marb's Avatar


Marb
07.29.2013 , 07:06 PM | #21
It is going off topic a little bit, but saber reflect isn't off cooldown for each add set, at least its not off cooldown when it counts (when they spawn). If you try to use it on every spawn you will eventually push back the cooldown to the point where you are using it when the adds are half-dead. You just rotate reflect with aoe taunt however and its fine.

I wouldn't be so quick to diminish the challenge of tanking those adds in HM, on the spawn when they are far apart, a guardian can't hit them with guardian strike or sweep, keeping agro on two separate targets without any collateral aoe is a bit stressful in the opening moments when they spawn. I have noticed that you can sweeping strike the area when they spawn before the models appear and that causes them to laser you, so it seems you generate threat on the before you can damage them.

I would list these adds as one of the few genuinely challenging tank duties in the game, OPs are just full of heal checks, with tanks baby sitting the big boss mob and yelling swap.
Harbinger

TheRampage's Avatar


TheRampage
07.29.2013 , 07:32 PM | #22
Nerf shadows, they were best tanks from start of the game.



Oh, you already did, gj Bioware.
Raphel - Not Good Enough

leto_cleon's Avatar


leto_cleon
07.29.2013 , 07:49 PM | #23
Now this is where I really must disagree with Kitru. (And maybe i should lay out cookies, muffins and milk first )

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Your argument is *seriously* "Guardians sucked before so they deserve to be incredibly strong right now"? The *only* issue that Guardians had pre-2.0 was damage/threat, and, because it was damage/threat, it wasn't even a major issue.

Anyone telling you anything else about their performance pre-2.0 is deluding themselves: Guardians were excellent tanks. The only reason that Shadows won out was because you actually had to play a Shadow based upon your own skills/timing and the fight in question rather than just learning your resource management and being done with it. Every fight was the same for a Guardian. Every fight was different for a Shadow.

Furthermore, in one of the more disturbing breaks from reality I've encountered on the forums, the Guardian threat/damage issues pre-2.0 only affected their ability to function as a tank for the first 10-15 seconds of a fight and was not a near guarantee of a wipe if it occurred. It was *not* a holistic problem across the *entirety* of a fight. You could easily predict *when* the threat problems would be around and easily work around them (generally by telling your DPS to hold the hell off for 3-4 seconds if you had a Guardian tank which wouldn't even affect their mean DPS in any appreciable manner; oh noes, mean DPS went down by .77%!; conversely, you could just have another tank start off the fight, generate said gobloads of threat, and then let the Guardian take over with a taunt). The Shadow spikiness problems are *explicitly* a problem across the entire portion of a fight and *most definitely* threaten to wipe the entire attempt if said Shadow tank gets gibbed.

The "badness" that Guardians faced pre-2.0 was comparatively minor. Threat was *designed* to be super simple so having bad threat was a minor problem at best. Taunt spamming means that you can, quite literally, keep aggro by just taunting after the first 20-25 seconds. Because of that, bad threat means *nothing*. Guardians didn't threaten to fall over dead based entirely on RNG. Any suggestion that Guardians were as bad off as Shadows are now is either deluding themselves, outright lying, or incapable of grasping the concept of comparison beyond the binary assignation (X better than Y rather than X is such-and-such better than Y).
The issue was with Guardian tanks having the lowest dps among the tanks and hence the lowest base threat generation. The problem with threat generation is serious especially in mechanics requiring a tank swap (at least the initial one). A DPS can pull aggro off a Guardian even after using both taunt and challenging call, and if this is close to the time to swap aggro, the Guardian Tank either taunts back (hence delaying the swap), or holds back the taunt until the swap (hence giving his co-tank a Boss running amock and out of position). It was serious enough that some Guardian tanks used the hybrid spec to have better DPS/TPS. In close fights, tank contribution to DPS matters. This problem was only compounded when Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash received a nerf in one of the patches.

Aside from threat, Guardians were the worse tanks in terms of kiting and hold aggro on add spawns or groups of mobs. Guardian tanks simply did not have enough AOE or range DPS. The high threat Guardian abilities were single target melee abilities (there was a time that Guardian Slash was single target).

Outside of Enure, Guardians had the lowest HP among the tanks, so there were problems dealing with elemental/internal damage as well as bad RNG.

Quote:
Pre-2.0, the differences in play between the ACs was small enough that you brought the player and not the class. The class was, at best, a tiebreaker if you had 2 players of the same caliber with different ACs. If you were given the choice between a mediocre Shadow and a good Guardian, you'd take the Guardian (one of the major reasons being that player skill actually had a pretty big impact upon a Shadow tank's survivability whereas a Guardian player's skill only really impacted threat/damage). Right now, if you were given the option between a good Shadow and a mediocre Guardian, you'd actually have a pretty hard time deciding since Shadows are so risky while Guardians are idiotproof and ridonculously good. The only time that a Shadow is going to get a spot is when they're already a member of an established raiding group or they are the only tank available.
Guardian tanks are still the only tanks who need to generate their own resources, which outside for melee range they can only do every 30s for minimal focus. (The focus generated from taking damage is also not that much.) Guardian focus generation and threat generation were anything but idiot proof and running anything less than the optimum rotation as well as taunting outside of melee range pretty much ran the risk of DPS pulling aggro off without much effort.

A mediocre Shadow was in a much better position than a good Guardian and it simple was they case that Guardians needed much better gear to match Shadow performance. The smoother damage taken profile of the Shadow was pretty much a huge quality of life boost a raid, and higher Shadow tank DPS did make a difference between clearing and not clearing a particular fight.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
For Guardian/Juggs:

Step 1: Saber Reflect
Step 2: Laugh as you have all of the threat you need thanks to up front threat and damage reflection.
I don't think you have much experience with the Guardian tank on add duty for HM Golden Fury. In the 16man Saber Reflect must be used together with challenging call. Even after challenging call and saber reflect as well as the standard Guardian AOE, DPS (on adds) and healers are able pull right off a Guardian.

The cooldown of Saber Reflect is also longer than the time taken for the adds to spawn. The cooldown of challenging call finishes first, but using challenging call at the second add spawn without saber reflect is just silly. Using it in the middle or at toward the end is also a terrible idea. Further, Saber Reflect alone on the third adds spawn is simply not enough to ensure that the adds are shooting at your and self generating aggro.

During the alternate add spawn the Guardian tank is left with their horrid standard AOE threat generation.

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.29.2013 , 08:38 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
It is going off topic a little bit, but saber reflect isn't off cooldown for each add set, at least its not off cooldown when it counts (when they spawn). If you try to use it on every spawn you will eventually push back the cooldown to the point where you are using it when the adds are half-dead. You just rotate reflect with aoe taunt however and its fine.

I wouldn't be so quick to diminish the challenge of tanking those adds in HM, on the spawn when they are far apart, a guardian can't hit them with guardian strike or sweep, keeping agro on two separate targets without any collateral aoe is a bit stressful in the opening moments when they spawn. I have noticed that you can sweeping strike the area when they spawn before the models appear and that causes them to laser you, so it seems you generate threat on the before you can damage them.

I would list these adds as one of the few genuinely challenging tank duties in the game, OPs are just full of heal checks, with tanks baby sitting the big boss mob and yelling swap.
With 2 jugg tanks it is a joke, just tank swap every add spawn so you make sure they have saber reflect up for every single add group, and with any other tank you should also do that to keep cds and relics up, not to mention AoE taunt. I don't understand why people try to use crazy tactics keeping one tank always on boss and another on adds.
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kennethdale's Avatar


kennethdale
07.29.2013 , 10:20 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Yngow View Post
With 2 jugg tanks it is a joke, just tank swap every add spawn so you make sure they have saber reflect up for every single add group, and with any other tank you should also do that to keep cds and relics up, not to mention AoE taunt. I don't understand why people try to use crazy tactics keeping one tank always on boss and another on adds.
O.o Crazy tactics? You say swap tanks as if it just a matter of moving a few feet when what you are really talking about involves ensuring both tanks have 100% uptime of ISO, are able to move from one side of that room to the other in an increasingly small window while preventing both tank targets from 1 shotting every one else not to mention how the MT needs his/her cds for tanking the boss and not to be used on the much less hard hitting adds. Have you ever actually tanked 16M HM TC? On SM it is entirely possible to single tank the whole encounter which could explain your belief that its "easy". As for needing saber reflect for every set of adds, you're flat out wrong. With the right rotation and being, you know, skilled at the class you can hold both without saber reflect. A previous poster made the excellent point that even saber reflect alone won't hold aggro against good dps for long after it ends.

it seems to me that there are a lot of misconceptions about saber reflect and its usefulness. Its a great way for a melee tank to build ranged threat fast, its also occasionally hilarious in PvP if timed correctly (watching a sniper murder himself in 5 seconds is just glorious but since snipers are the only class that can put out that much damage in that short of a period of time they are the only class you can effectively murder with one skill and even so it takes amazing timing and luck), and it is phenomenal for trash. Aside from that it has severely limited utility in ops and is basically a once a minute guaranteed non boss hit.

Quote:
Force Shroud - Removes all removable hostile effects and increases your chance to resist force and tech attacks by 100%. 60 second CD.
Quote:
Saber Reflect - Reflects all direct single target ranged, force, and tech attacks back to the attacker for 3 seconds. The damage dealt this way is capped. 60 second CD.
Comparing the two sins get to remove all hostile effects which makes it a survability CD juggs get to reflect back damage which makes it a threat Gen cd. Guess what? Juggs need help with ranged, force andtech mobs threat. Sins need help with survivability. They both got it. Seems pretty *********** balanced. And as for sins, I was not going to say it because its a hot button issue but honestly I'm sick to death of the whole waaaaaaah sins are hard and we get hit hard waaaaah bs. Guess what? Its tough. Yup. But guilds have downed everything so far with and without sins so you're not completely broken. And as for what rng kills sins, you are talking about extremely end game content that doesn't effect the vast majority of players. The vast majority of people who pay for the game. Why the hell would/should bioware care about what 1% of the population thinks? You think they should,spend the money they earned for the other 99% of people tuning a game for you?

But you know what? I'll put my money where my mouth is; I honestly do not believe that tanking on a sin (or a pt for that matter) is that much harder than a jugg, so lets find out. Starting tomorrow,I'll roll a shadow and level it up, gear it just like I did with my jugg through comms, alt runs, etc, so when he hits 55 he is in good enough gear to step into hms and I'll see just how much more skill is needed. Maybe I'm wrong, but since every other time I've done tried something like this I ended up seeing that,nope they are preeeeeetty much the same I really doubt it.
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Marb's Avatar


Marb
07.29.2013 , 10:27 PM | #26
Tank damage isn't really a factor in this fight, its simply mechanics and execution. Swapping tanks each laser phase doesn't really bring anything game changing to the encounter.

Not swapping does put more pressure on the add tank, as they have to manage their aoe taunt and a guardian will need assistance on the barrels with no pull, as they must be back for the adds as soon as they spawn to prevent a healer getting splatted. In short, if a tank is capable of doing the adds full time, there is no advantage to swapping before radiation leak.

Nothing is lost by using the swap either, so they are both valid strategies. I just wouldn't call single tanking the adds "crazy".
Harbinger

KnyghtmareX's Avatar


KnyghtmareX
07.29.2013 , 11:19 PM | #27
Threads like this are the Reason Powertech/Vangaurds got nerf hard now you asking for another tank class to get nerfed please like someone said in the beginning of the thread "Just quit the game" quit crying dang
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leto_cleon's Avatar


leto_cleon
07.29.2013 , 11:39 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Yngow View Post
With 2 jugg tanks it is a joke, just tank swap every add spawn so you make sure they have saber reflect up for every single add group, and with any other tank you should also do that to keep cds and relics up, not to mention AoE taunt. I don't understand why people try to use crazy tactics keeping one tank always on boss and another on adds.
If a Guardian is tanking Golden Fury, he should actually be using Saber Reflect on the range attacks as a mitigation and aggro generation. (I think the ranged attack is called Rapid Blast). So it is not the case that 2 Guardian tanks solves the issue of the adds spawning faster than the cooldown of challenging call and saber reflect.

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
07.30.2013 , 02:09 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Did Kitru hack your account? Damn, I used to think you were one of the reasonable shadow/sins that posted.

Such a shame.

When you one shot SV HM with two 31k guardians, with level 35 relics,level 40 earpieces, a mix of 66 gear and 2 arkanian pieces , something is definitely wrong with the game. I appreciate your honesty but diplomacy seems to bring nothing in this game. When the PVP-ers went on a rampage about shadow nerfs, they received them, we will on a rampage about guardian nerfs, to even out the playing field. It is not fair for guilds to set back progression and level guardian tanks / recruit them because everyone prefers them in operations, faceroll tanks.

Clearing content with guardian tanks is too easy compared to shadows. They are at two extremes and this is not alright. Tanks have never been worse than now but nobody seems to care. Some of the replies on the forums are still mind boggling. When people claim that guilds have cleared nim with shadows and you see on streams that shadows get one shot without even saying that is not normal it is just sad. A tank is a tank, you stack mitigation, you gear up to TANK not to be one shot. Doesn't not matter if its light armour, heavy armour, we gear up to stay alive so others don't have to die but wait, we get one shot while the other two tanks, especially the Guardian does not. So conclusion is if a tank is supposed to stay alive by any means necessary then the shadow is not a tank.


Before 2.0 shadows were tanks, after 2.0 shadows are a class with tanking abilities. There is a major difference between the two and not in a good way. We had to change our composition, I gave up on my shadow tank because my guild is suffering in ops. I spent hundreds of hours and tens of millions in this character, I grind gear to have a 2500 mitigation budget according to our theorycrafters and for what? So I take a mediocre geared Guardian tank in my ops group and we one shot everything while I go with my bis 72 shadow tank and on trash i drop like a fly in hp ?? Thrasher puts me on low hp even in 8 man and the 31k guardians were kind of saying in teamspeak after we one shot thrasher : I did not think this was possible. Healers are 100% sure now that shadows put more stress than needed on their resource and on how strict the raid is when clearing content. It feels nice to have a class that Jesse Sky has rendered trash in both PVP/PVE. So one dude decided one day to p*ss on my 1.5 year effort and buff the class he plays. All I can say is *facepalm* because it seems that he is a better person than all the thousands of shadow tanks and his preference is above all.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.30.2013 , 02:46 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
When you one shot SV HM with two 31k guardians, with level 35 relics,level 40 earpieces, a mix of 66 gear and 2 arkanian pieces , something is definitely wrong with the game. I appreciate your honesty but diplomacy seems to bring nothing in this game. When the PVP-ers went on a rampage about shadow nerfs, they received them, we will on a rampage about guardian nerfs, to even out the playing field. It is not fair for guilds to set back progression and level guardian tanks / recruit them because everyone prefers them in operations, faceroll tanks.

Clearing content with guardian tanks is too easy compared to shadows. They are at two extremes and this is not alright. Tanks have never been worse than now but nobody seems to care. Some of the replies on the forums are still mind boggling. When people claim that guilds have cleared nim with shadows and you see on streams that shadows get one shot without even saying that is not normal it is just sad. A tank is a tank, you stack mitigation, you gear up to TANK not to be one shot. Doesn't not matter if its light armour, heavy armour, we gear up to stay alive so others don't have to die but wait, we get one shot while the other two tanks, especially the Guardian does not. So conclusion is if a tank is supposed to stay alive by any means necessary then the shadow is not a tank.


Before 2.0 shadows were tanks, after 2.0 shadows are a class with tanking abilities. There is a major difference between the two and not in a good way. We had to change our composition, I gave up on my shadow tank because my guild is suffering in ops. I spent hundreds of hours and tens of millions in this character, I grind gear to have a 2500 mitigation budget according to our theorycrafters and for what? So I take a mediocre geared Guardian tank in my ops group and we one shot everything while I go with my bis 72 shadow tank and on trash i drop like a fly in hp ?? Thrasher puts me on low hp even in 8 man and the 31k guardians were kind of saying in teamspeak after we one shot thrasher : I did not think this was possible. Healers are 100% sure now that shadows put more stress than needed on their resource and on how strict the raid is when clearing content. It feels nice to have a class that Jesse Sky has rendered trash in both PVP/PVE. So one dude decided one day to p*ss on my 1.5 year effort and buff the class he plays. All I can say is *facepalm* because it seems that he is a better person than all the thousands of shadow tanks and his preference is above all.
I suppose you could one shot sv hm in less then above tanking gear (even as a shadow). You saw on fuyris stream that he died to terminate. Why did you then not answer to my posts about terminate in the other section (and instead keep on writing your opinion as a fact (like disproven kitru)). On 8 man hm thrasher i had fights where i did not go a single time under 80% life. If your healers can't keep a decent geared shadow tank on 8 man hm for thrasher up they are not bad, but really bad i suppose.
Healers said sometimes (when we had our first few tries on some bosses in 8 man nim), that i am more difficult to heal, but when we did the fights a few times and they learned how the tanks got damage in that fight there was no difference between me and the other tank.