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NERF : Guardian Tanks

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
NERF : Guardian Tanks

Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
08.02.2013 , 01:55 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
yea I realize that I simply wasn't sure if you seriously thought that would help or if you tried to make a joke.
The worst case scenario of a *fix* for Shadow/Assassin tanks would be a buff which doesn't help with spikiness or something so minor as 1% DR just to keep the masses happy.
I wonder if we would have more luck by shouting out *rework the current content so it's easier for Shadow/Assassins to survive* instead of the buff/nerf game. And just changing damage spikes to I/E damage would not work since people will again (rightly) complain that we have an unfair advantage with Force Shroud/Resilience if all dangerous mechanics are I/E damage types.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
08.02.2013 , 02:05 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Panzerfire View Post
And just changing damage spikes to I/E damage would not work since people will again (rightly) complain that we have an unfair advantage with Force Shroud/Resilience if all dangerous mechanics are I/E damage types.
Well, even *if* all spikes were converted to I/E rather than K/E, the spikes come faster than Resilience comes off of CD. On top of that, Saber Reflect would work just as well for all but a tiny portion of them. It's not really a question of "Shadows have it better than everyone else" at that point but instead "VGs are screwed because they *don't* have a CD and also have the lowest I/E DR".

Honestly, the current state of tanks is a confluence of multiple bad decisions on the part of the devs. They overbuffed Guardians, did nothing to address the single weakness that VGs had that *needed* to be addressed, and developed content that specifically demolishes Shadows based upon their own ignorance of tanks other than Guardians.

There's no *single* thing that could be done to solve the problem amongst all of the tanks, which is why it, honestly, needs to be a reanalysis of the entire structure: spike damage needs to be reevaluated and constructed as either a *large* (re: 5-8) number of attacks or as I/E damage; Shadows and Guardians both need to have their spikiness reigned in (Shadows reduced, Guardians increased); VGs and Guardians both need to have their CD suite reevaluated (Guardians weakened to some extent; VGs strengthened with the addition of an anti-F/T CD). The first is to prevent unfair spike danger between the tanks. The second is to make it so that Guardians aren't stepping on the toes of VGs (since smoothness of incoming damage is *supposed* to be their schtick) and that Shadows don't live or die at the mercy of the RNG. The third is to prevent Guardians from stepping on the toes of Shadows (since "amazing CD suite" is *supposed* to be the Shadow schtick). The last is to prevent the devs from creating content that obliterates one tank more than the others by allowing them to actually prevent the amount of damage a spike does from varying wildly (either dealing too little damage or dealing too much).
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Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
08.02.2013 , 02:17 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonexadon View Post
I agree Shadows are spikey and need some love. I have read several of your post and others about the subject. Can you really claim this post has added anything new?
IIRC that was really the whole point of Leafy's post.
Nobody *really* cares about nerfing guardians. But since the devs have continually maintained an attitude of "shrmkthxbai" when it comes to Shadow spikiness and have the perpetuating appearance that Guardians are the only class they care about.
The *newness* of this post comes in that maybe if we attack their precious guardian, we might get Shadows fixed.
It's kinda like trying to cure high blood pressure with a heart transplant. A little extreme, but I for one agree that this is getting a little too frustrating. It's getting to the point where I want to just give up and find another game.

So if the only way to get the devs attention and get Shadow/Sin fixed is this, then I say....

NERF THE BASTAGIS!
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.02.2013 , 02:35 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonexadon View Post
I agree Shadows are spikey and need some love. I have read several of your post and others about the subject. Can you really claim this post has added anything new?
If this thread had actually gotten some attention from the devs besides "we're aware and looking into it", then that would have been something new.
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Dragonexadon's Avatar


Dragonexadon
08.02.2013 , 02:36 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
If this thread had actually gotten some attention from the devs besides "we're aware and looking into it", then that would have been something new.
True, but devs have often stated several times before that post like these are not the post they are looking for.

Edit: As compassion the post that finally got a dev response was well thought out (even though short in terms of a Kitru post). Not a post stating

"Guardian tanks faceroll, nerf guardians"
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MillionsKNives's Avatar


MillionsKNives
08.02.2013 , 02:50 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonexadon View Post
True, but devs have often stated several times before that post like these are not the post they are looking for.

Edit: As compassion the post that finally got a dev response was well thought out (even though short in terms of a Kitru post). Not a post stating

"Guardian tanks faceroll, nerf guardians"
Actually that's not true. The only reason they posted in that thread was because Leafy was posting threads all over the forums DEMANDING that they take a look at the problem. Them posting the response in Kitru's thread was only to save face from looking like they were giving in to the demands of a raving lunatic (sorry Leafy ).

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
08.02.2013 , 02:50 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Honestly, the current state of tanks is a confluence of multiple bad decisions on the part of the devs. They overbuffed Guardians, did nothing to address the single weakness that VGs had that *needed* to be addressed, and developed content that specifically demolishes Shadows based upon their own ignorance of tanks other than Guardians.
If the single weakness of VG's is their cooldown suite then I have to ask if you paid attention to the 2.0 patch notes. Kolto Overload got taken from nearly useless all the way up to the best heal in the game. Energy Shield got its duration increased, and is now the longest cooldown in the game. Oil Slick had its effect increased by 50% making it quite a powerful cooldown.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
There's no *single* thing that could be done to solve the problem amongst all of the tanks, which is why it, honestly, needs to be a reanalysis of the entire structure: spike damage needs to be reevaluated and constructed as either a *large* (re: 5-8) number of attacks or as I/E damage; Shadows and Guardians both need to have their spikiness reigned in (Shadows reduced, Guardians increased); VGs and Guardians both need to have their CD suite reevaluated (Guardians weakened to some extent; VGs strengthened with the addition of an anti-F/T CD). The first is to prevent unfair spike danger between the tanks. The second is to make it so that Guardians aren't stepping on the toes of VGs (since smoothness of incoming damage is *supposed* to be their schtick) and that Shadows don't live or die at the mercy of the RNG. The third is to prevent Guardians from stepping on the toes of Shadows (since "amazing CD suite" is *supposed* to be the Shadow schtick). The last is to prevent the devs from creating content that obliterates one tank more than the others by allowing them to actually prevent the amount of damage a spike does from varying wildly (either dealing too little damage or dealing too much).
Increase Sin tank armor while decreasing their other stats, and decrease Jugg tank armor while increasing other stats. All tanks have roughly the right amount of average mitigation, it's just the spikiness that's causing imbalances. I've played with KeyboardNinja's Ops Chief and Thrasher spikiness code, and there are only 2 parameters with a significant effect on spikiness; armor rating and health pool. Right now Sin tanks can greatly increase their chances to live through spikes by taking B lettered mods and UW/KD ears and implants over the Veracity ones (which is why I roll my eyes at any tank, but especially a Sin who claims to be BIS with 34k health). But that increased chance to live still leaves them far behind Jugg tank spikiness, and only tweaking armor will fix that.

As for your quip about current content being designed to obliterate 1 tank more than the other, I'll kindly point out that a lot of the NIM content is designed to accommodate Sin tanks. Huge Grenade is 7 simultaneous attacks, the Writhing Horror's melee attack is 3 simultaneous attacks and his force attack is 2 simultaneous attacks. Any time 1 attack is broken down into several hits a Sin tank. And before you chime in about many attacks blowing through your Dark Ward stacks, a Sin tank should be expected to continuously have Dark Ward up if the APS is 1.67 or less, meaning bosses that attack on a 1.5 second GCD, attack with an average of 2.5 simultaneous attacks.

I'll spot you Terminate. I think the intention was for it to force tank swaps to cycle good cooldowns, but the design of the attack allows Jugg tanks to just cycle their own cooldowns, and allows Powertechs to just eat it.
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Dragonexadon's Avatar


Dragonexadon
08.02.2013 , 02:55 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by MillionsKNives View Post
Actually that's not true. The only reason they posted in that thread was because Leafy was posting threads all over the forums DEMANDING that they take a look at the problem. Them posting the response in Kitru's thread was only to save face from looking like they were giving in to the demands of a raving lunatic (sorry Leafy ).
haha fair enough. I never thought trolling the devs was the best way to fish a response. But if it works, what can I really say?
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Berjiz's Avatar


Berjiz
08.02.2013 , 03:12 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
Increase Sin tank armor while decreasing their other stats, and decrease Jugg tank armor while increasing other stats. All tanks have roughly the right amount of average mitigation, it's just the spikiness that's causing imbalances. I've played with KeyboardNinja's Ops Chief and Thrasher spikiness code, and there are only 2 parameters with a significant effect on spikiness; armor rating and health pool. Right now Sin tanks can greatly increase their chances to live through spikes by taking B lettered mods and UW/KD ears and implants over the Veracity ones (which is why I roll my eyes at any tank, but especially a Sin who claims to be BIS with 34k health). But that increased chance to live still leaves them far behind Jugg tank spikiness, and only tweaking armor will fix that.
It doesn't only still leave them behind spikness it also makes their mean migation worse than juggs(is a KBN post about it somewhere). So it kinda doesn't work. Your are scarificing a lot of stats for it. KD ears/implants are worth it, just 10 stats for 72 endurance.

Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
As for your quip about current content being designed to obliterate 1 tank more than the other, I'll kindly point out that a lot of the NIM content is designed to accommodate Sin tanks. Huge Grenade is 7 simultaneous attacks, the Writhing Horror's melee attack is 3 simultaneous attacks and his force attack is 2 simultaneous attacks. Any time 1 attack is broken down into several hits a Sin tank. And before you chime in about many attacks blowing through your Dark Ward stacks, a Sin tank should be expected to continuously have Dark Ward up if the APS is 1.67 or less, meaning bosses that attack on a 1.5 second GCD, attack with an average of 2.5 simultaneous attacks.

I'll spot you Terminate. I think the intention was for it to force tank swaps to cycle good cooldowns, but the design of the attack allows Jugg tanks to just cycle their own cooldowns, and allows Powertechs to just eat it.
2 or 3 hits might be to little 4 or 5 is probably better at reducing the rng. Part of the problem with terminte is that more cooldowns doesn't solve it since said cooldowns aren't guaranted. With deflection up it's still about 10% chance for it go through.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
08.02.2013 , 03:28 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
If the single weakness of VG's is their cooldown suite then I have to ask if you paid attention to the 2.0 patch notes. Kolto Overload got taken from nearly useless all the way up to the best heal in the game. Energy Shield got its duration increased, and is now the longest cooldown in the game. Oil Slick had its effect increased by 50% making it quite a powerful cooldown.
Adrenaline Rush is almost useless in its current state. Yes, it's great if you're knocked down to sub-30% hp while taking moderate-to-low DPS but, in *any* other situation, it's terrible. It's simply *too* conditional, especially since it's not like VGs ever really drop low enough to activate it.

Reactive Shield getting pushed up to 18 seconds from 15 seconds for tanks isn't really an amazing change. Yes, it means that it's fully 6 seconds longer than the other tank CDs, but that's not really saying much since they have a *single* major tank CD that lasts 18 seconds whereas the other tanks have 2 major tank CDs that last 12 seconds apiece, allowing for 24 seconds of major survivability.

Riot Gas is, and has *always*, been questionable in its application as an actual tank CD rather than an averageable commodity that should be used on CD, like Energy Blast. *I* have always considered it an ability that should be used on CD because that's how it gets used by pretty much *every* VG tank I know, including myself. Yes, you can reserve it for CD specific usage, but it's not as powerful as the other tank CDs by a long shot, nor does it afford appreciable F/T protection, which is the *major* VG weakness now that Guardians get to ignore a large amount of it. Also, it wasn't doubled. It got pulled up to 30% from 18%, which is a 67% increase.

The VG CD suite is *still* the weakest CD suite. Yes, it got buffed, but the weakness to which I was referring was the lack of an F/T CD which is a glaring weakness considering what Saber Reflect did to the basic status of tank CD suites.
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