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2.0 DPS Leaderboard (v2)


KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.02.2013 , 03:03 PM | #541
Quote: Originally Posted by Falver View Post
Will be forming the new thread later today, stay tuned.
Just a bit of unsolicited input I highly recommend that you give parses a strict 300 second duration. This avoids advantaging some specs over others (since certain specs have cooldowns that realign just after the 300 second mark). Carnage/Combat is a good example. Take any competent Combat/Carnage parse and crop it at 310 seconds. You'll see higher DPS than if you crop it at 300. Telekinetics/Lightning is another good example, since Relic/Adrenal/Alacrity can be paired for a DPS boost of 20-30 if you're allowed to run until 320 seconds.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Shandellon's Avatar


Shandellon
10.02.2013 , 04:32 PM | #542
No

Any time periods should be allowed. There is no reason to cut it at 300. Certain classes already have advanatges over other on dummy, thsts how it supposed to be
Cyntia - Sage Hp - Gunsliger Dps
<Not Good Enough>/<FriendlyFire> @ ToFN

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.02.2013 , 04:52 PM | #543
Quote: Originally Posted by Shandellon View Post
Any time periods should be allowed. There is no reason to cut it at 300. Certain classes already have advanatges over other on dummy, thsts how it supposed to be
Cooldown list:
  • Burst Volley (45s)
  • Blackout (45s)
  • Smuggler's Luck (60s)
  • Mental Alacrity (90s base; 65s effective for TK)
  • Force Potency (90s)
  • Force Cloak (90s)
  • Illegal Mods (90s)
  • Pugnacity (90s)
  • Battle Readiness (120s)
  • Relic (120s)
  • Recharge Cells (120s)
  • Reserve Powercell (120s base; 90s talented in Assault)
  • Cool Head (120s base; 90s talented in Dirty Fighting)
  • Adrenal (180s)
  • Inspiration (300s)

In order to achieve fair comparisons between specs, we need to find an equilibrium wherein all cooldown values are as close as possible to their average. In other words, you wouldn't want to allow a 140 second fight, because a commando could use Recharge Cells twice to achieve MASSIVE ammo burn and significantly above-average regen. These averages are achieved by finding an equilibrium point which is as close as possible to the coincidence of a maximum number of cooldowns. We have several durations to consider:
  • 45s
  • 60s
  • 90s
  • 120s
  • 180s
  • 300s

The only 300 second cooldown is Inspiration. In general, cooldowns are ascending in strength, so we want to prioritize equalibria for the stronger CDs. A series of endpoints for each of these cooldowns is listed below:
  • 0 - 45 - 90 - 135 - 180 - 225 - 270 - 315
  • 0 - 60 - 120 - 180 - 240 - 300
  • 0 - 90 - 180 - 270 - 360
  • 0 - 120 - 240 - 360
  • 0 - 180 - 360
  • 0 - 300 - 600

As you can see, a lot of things come off CD in the 200-300 bracket, and then again either at 300 or shortly thereafter. Given the desire to balance the 60 and 300 second CDs (remember, Inspiration is *extremely* strong in its window), 300 seconds makes the most sense. This gives:
  • 45s - 7 activations, clip final by 33%; overall exaggeration = 4.86%
  • 60s - 5 activations, no clipping; overall exaggeration = 0%
  • 90s - 4 activations, clip final by 66%; overall exaggeration = 16.75%
  • 120s - 3 activations, clip final by 50%; overall exaggeration = 16.67%
  • 180s - 2 activations, clip final by 33%; overall exaggeration = 17.00%
  • 300s - 1 activation, no clipping; overall exaggeration = 0%

17 minutes is an even better equilibrium point (math left as an exercise to the reader), but I think you get the picture. The point is that a 300 second duration leaves *no* CDs at a greater-than 20% value exaggeration. That's pretty fair, I think. Note though that 17 minutes is also going to significantly favor specs with long ramp-up (e.g. Annihilation/Watchman) at the expense of high-burst specs (e.g. Carnage/Combat)

Ideally, we would have different lengths for each class to ensure minimal exaggeration on a class-by-class basis. That gets really tedious to police though. If we have to settle on a single standard length, it should be 300 seconds, and I think we should settle on a single standard length.

If you want to have this leaderboard be a competition, then a standardized length is mandatory for it to be even remotely fair (for the reasons I illustrated above). If you want it to be for pedagogical purposes (i.e. learning from high-parsers), then a standardized length is by far the most useful thing to do since it allows direct comparisons between parses of the same spec (e.g. number of ability activations; APM; etc). The only reason to allow arbitrary length parses is to advantage specs with certain cooldowns (esp 45s CDs) over others (esp 60s CDs) and enable people to achieve higher numbers by playing with crop tools rather than actually improving.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Falver's Avatar


Falver
10.02.2013 , 04:57 PM | #544
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Just a bit of unsolicited input I highly recommend that you give parses a strict 300 second duration. This avoids advantaging some specs over others (since certain specs have cooldowns that realign just after the 300 second mark). Carnage/Combat is a good example. Take any competent Combat/Carnage parse and crop it at 310 seconds. You'll see higher DPS than if you crop it at 300. Telekinetics/Lightning is another good example, since Relic/Adrenal/Alacrity can be paired for a DPS boost of 20-30 if you're allowed to run until 320 seconds.
I'm not going to. The same way you have your disclaimers for tanking distributions, I have mine for the combat dummy. Some classes are going to do more on the dummy and some won't. I've already expressly stated that the changes I make to the rules are made relative to whether or not something can be done in a raid. And sentinels/marauders certainly can use inspiration/bloodthirst in almost every boss fight in the game more than once.

Besides, when you restrict it to 300 seconds, trust me when I say the results will be further skewed. People are going to parse in a such a way that they can squeeze out whatever they can in 300 seconds rather than how they would in an ops. I already think the list of rules I have now are fairly stifling to maintain and there's no reason to do otherwise. Additionally, if you're trying to cross compare classes with dummy parses, you're going to get no where.

I honestly don't understand your logic. If you don't want people to use their cooldowns intelligently, why don't I just outlaw the use of cooldowns in parses? To me that's the train of thought you're proposing.
The Harbinger
Claimed - Thirteenth - Falver
<Phobos> is recruiting to fill in multiple raid groups. Apply at http://fearphobos.com/

Falver's Avatar


Falver
10.02.2013 , 06:47 PM | #545
Quote: Originally Posted by Shandellon View Post
Last day, so I'll finally make some appearence here
Hp - Gunsinger - Hydrid 5/18/23 - 3262.53 dps
link http://www.torparse.com/a/442474/tim...0/Damage+Dealt
amr http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...a-bcdc7b8fd6fd

Won't top it, but too many mistakes and too little time to parse more For a second I though i got a lot of crits, so can make top3 despite those mistakes thanks to rng, but then I saw top parse and was like ^^
Cybertech grenades were used.

Archiving soon.

Edit: The thread has been relocated here
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685275
The Harbinger
Claimed - Thirteenth - Falver
<Phobos> is recruiting to fill in multiple raid groups. Apply at http://fearphobos.com/

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
10.02.2013 , 07:43 PM | #546
Quote: Originally Posted by Falver View Post
I'm not going to. The same way you have your disclaimers for tanking distributions, I have mine for the combat dummy. Some classes are going to do more on the dummy and some won't. I've already expressly stated that the changes I make to the rules are made relative to whether or not something can be done in a raid. And sentinels/marauders certainly can use inspiration/bloodthirst in almost every boss fight in the game more than once.

Besides, when you restrict it to 300 seconds, trust me when I say the results will be further skewed. People are going to parse in a such a way that they can squeeze out whatever they can in 300 seconds rather than how they would in an ops. I already think the list of rules I have now are fairly stifling to maintain and there's no reason to do otherwise. Additionally, if you're trying to cross compare classes with dummy parses, you're going to get no where.
I don't mean to nitpick here, but a dummy is not an actual ops boss. Nor is standing still for 300s+ equivalent to a raid.

This leaderboard is about pushing your dps to the highest possible level, and to take that model and apply it in a practical fashion in an operation, which often requires drastic changes as you rarely get to stand still or take no damage for more than 90s. So if you believe (Falver) that this should be used as an educational tool, then listening to KBN and applying a 300s limit to each parse would be far more productive for the raiding community as it gives people a fairly decent benchmark in terms of ability activations.

However if you believe that the leaderboard is just a place to /superflex then so be it, leave it as it is.

One last thing, regarding your quote about people squeezing as much dps as they can in 300s, isnt that the dps's job? And more importantly, how does 10 or 20 seconds make any appreciable difference in ability activation? If I have exactly 5 minutes to parse rather than 520 or whatever number you choose, it's not like any of my attacks have appreciably long enough cooldowns to be affected. Most loose rotations revolve around the 15 -20 second mark, and most resource bars will drain in less than a minute if used for maximum dps. So that statement that you made doesn't quite add up sorry.

But regardless, it's your board and I don't think anyone is complaining about how well you have maintained it, I just don't think it's wise to be dismissing ideas that may benefit the community even further because of inaccurate rationale.

Two cents done.
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.

Falver's Avatar


Falver
10.02.2013 , 08:13 PM | #547
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
One last thing, regarding your quote about people squeezing as much dps as they can in 300s, isnt that the dps's job? And more importantly, how does 10 or 20 seconds make any appreciable difference in ability activation? If I have exactly 5 minutes to parse rather than 520 or whatever number you choose, it's not like any of my attacks have appreciably long enough cooldowns to be affected. Most loose rotations revolve around the 15 -20 second mark, and most resource bars will drain in less than a minute if used for maximum dps. So that statement that you made doesn't quite add up sorry.
I won't say I'm not biased, because I am biased, I also parse and try to top the other parses. "Loose rotations" are the keywords in your statement and it's the truest ones you have. Every person's rotation isn't the same, no matter how you try to argue to me that it is the same, it isn't. I personally have designed my rotation to cap out at the 316 second mark of any rotation with the 300 second mark being my preparation for my last burst.

Additionally, Keyboardninja's arguments on different specs being the way for it to be done, are frankly skewed. There has been enough math to show that once you've averaged your damage (and hence damage per second, yes?) inspiration/bloodthirst does not add that much to your cumulative DPS. It is an increase nontheless, but should the other 7 classes on the leaderboard be subjected to the same rule if there is one particular outlier?

Even more, you say "it's not like any of my attacks have appreciably long enough cooldowns to be affected" but to me all I see from that argument is a narrow, subjective scope that says "this doesn't hurt me at all so I don't care." The saboteur/engineering parses rely completely on flyby/orbital and the hightail it-sabotage, and Keyboardninja's comment quite blatantly omitted attack cooldowns like flyby/orbital or mortar volley/death from above which in themselves are cooldowns as well. He tries to argue that the reason to make it CD based is to make it easier to compare classes. If you really want to compare classes accurately, the combat dummy is really not the place for you to be doing it. The best comparisons for DPS on a leaderboard, is in the same people in the leaderboard.

And please, don't even try to attack my character. Red Herring arguments don't bother me. Every time someone has a suggestion for me, I always take a look at it and evaluate it before making a decision. There's a reason that the honorable mentions section exists, and there's a reason AMR profiles became required.

Rather than attack my character and try to be an ******, why don't you take a leaf from KBN's book and actually supply data and information for me to take a look at. And yes, I did read his analysis on CDs and his reasonings based on it but I just happened to fundamentally disagree.
The Harbinger
Claimed - Thirteenth - Falver
<Phobos> is recruiting to fill in multiple raid groups. Apply at http://fearphobos.com/

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
10.02.2013 , 09:13 PM | #548
Quote: Originally Posted by Falver View Post
I won't say I'm not biased, because I am biased, I also parse and try to top the other parses. "Loose rotations" are the keywords in your statement and it's the truest ones you have. Every person's rotation isn't the same, no matter how you try to argue to me that it is the same, it isn't. I personally have designed my rotation to cap out at the 316 second mark of any rotation with the 300 second mark being my preparation for my last burst.

Additionally, Keyboardninja's arguments on different specs being the way for it to be done, are frankly skewed. There has been enough math to show that once you've averaged your damage (and hence damage per second, yes?) inspiration/bloodthirst does not add that much to your cumulative DPS. It is an increase nontheless, but should the other 7 classes on the leaderboard be subjected to the same rule if there is one particular outlier?

Even more, you say "it's not like any of my attacks have appreciably long enough cooldowns to be affected" but to me all I see from that argument is a narrow, subjective scope that says "this doesn't hurt me at all so I don't care." The saboteur/engineering parses rely completely on flyby/orbital and the hightail it-sabotage, and Keyboardninja's comment quite blatantly omitted attack cooldowns like flyby/orbital or mortar volley/death from above which in themselves are cooldowns as well. He tries to argue that the reason to make it CD based is to make it easier to compare classes. If you really want to compare classes accurately, the combat dummy is really not the place for you to be doing it. The best comparisons for DPS on a leaderboard, is in the same people in the leaderboard.

And please, don't even try to attack my character. Red Herring arguments don't bother me. Every time someone has a suggestion for me, I always take a look at it and evaluate it before making a decision. There's a reason that the honorable mentions section exists, and there's a reason AMR profiles became required.

Rather than attack my character and try to be an ******, why don't you take a leaf from KBN's book and actually supply data and information for me to take a look at. And yes, I did read his analysis on CDs and his reasonings based on it but I just happened to fundamentally disagree.
Ok, before this goes any further, I feel like I need to clarify that I am not attacking your character. Regardless of how you read it, that is not my intention, and I don't think I have been attacking your character at all. I am disagreeing with your arguments.

At the very core of the matter, making the dps leaderboards into a quasi measure of dps potential in raids is flawed for fairly obvious reasons as you are well aware of. So it basically begs the question, "What are they to be used for?".

If it is to just be a competition, then it's fine as it is. It's a competition to be the highest dps against your advanced class and counterparts (I don't think anyone disagrees that the competition is a very unfair one between different advanced classes and is not really a competition at all).

-----------------
Haven't edited, just leaving what I have written before I changed my mind.

In doing some more thinking, even setting a time limit won't actually do anything. The leaderboards can't be used to reflect dps in raids because of the flawed premise that it resides upon. Standing still for over 5 minutes whilst dealing damage with only procs, cooldowns and a priority list to determine the amount of damage done cannot be accurately represented as practical dps. Even when applying KBN's dps scalar thread work onto the values still does not deliver any amazingly insightful information for raiders other than a possible dps cap if he implements a few more raid scenarios . So I believe that raiding scenarios are just too different to dummy parses and there are too many more dominating factors that will impact the results than placing an exact time for parses. That and we already have a HM/NiM leaderboard that will be much more educational than this leaderboard, so I believe that the leaderboard should be used as a competitive list with the disclaimer that each class is different and will produce different results.

Carry on up the Khyber
.

Don't call people ******es Falver, it's not very nice.
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.

Falver's Avatar


Falver
10.02.2013 , 09:48 PM | #549
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
Don't call people ******es Falver, it's not very nice.
I'm not entirely sure what word that is, or what you think I said, but I was actually surprised I was censored.
The Harbinger
Claimed - Thirteenth - Falver
<Phobos> is recruiting to fill in multiple raid groups. Apply at http://fearphobos.com/

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
10.02.2013 , 09:59 PM | #550
Quote: Originally Posted by Falver View Post
I'm not entirely sure what word that is, or what you think I said, but I was actually surprised I was censored.
Well then I guess we can blame bioware for inciting thread wars
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.