Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Jack of all Trades Tank Class?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Jack of all Trades Tank Class?

Lacedemon's Avatar


Lacedemon
07.22.2013 , 09:36 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're confusing choice with inertia. A lot of world firsts still get done with a Shad/Sin because those are what the top tier tanks have played in the past. Those are the tanks that they actually have, geared and played appropriately for the content. This has *no* impact upon whether they are actually the best tank classs for the job. If you actually *check* with the world first guilds, they'll actually *tell you* that the Shad/Sin is a suboptimal tank for deep progression content and that they would much rather run with Guardians. In fact, most of them are actually swapping out their Shadows for Guardians and VGs. There were several threads on this subject on the 2.2 PTS before it got cleared. "First" is not the same "best". They're pretty much always done with what is available as opposed to the absolutely perfect composition.
This all of the healers hate how spikey they are and so do the Sins but partly it is also a matter of pride I believe in not re-rolling. Probably a bit of cannot be asked as well and "I don't want to go through another gear grind." We initially had a PT Tank with me for S&V but not because the Sin was subpar (he was passing for the PT as the Sin had done TFB NiM and so we where rotating).

Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
The "inertia" idea people are coming up with for why Sin tanks are still being brought (over 3 months since 2.0 has been out) is complete ********.
No it is pretty much why we still run sins; We bring the player not the class and if the best player for the job is a Sin then that's what I will bring. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that my sin is now on ToFN because its my PvP main and I moved it there for ranked we almost could of ended up running double Sin for S&V NiM.

Despite my Jugg being my main and that I love it to bits I actually have always enjoyed tanking more on my Sin even though is my alt (and despite it being inferior to the Jugg). Once the fun of *lolnodmgtaken* wares off I find the Sin more engaging
Lacedaemon - Juggernaut
The Red Eclipse EU - GM of Drop it like it's Hoth - http://dilih.eu/
World First TFB and S&V NiM Clear
RWZ Rating: Ranked died on my server

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.22.2013 , 10:10 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Lacedemon View Post
This all of the healers hate how spikey they are and so do the Sins but partly it is also a matter of pride I believe in not re-rolling. Probably a bit of cannot be asked as well and "I don't want to go through another gear grind." We initially had a PT Tank with me for S&V but not because the Sin was subpar (he was passing for the PT as the Sin had done TFB NiM and so we where rotating).



No it is pretty much why we still run sins; We bring the player not the class and if the best player for the job is a Sin then that's what I will bring. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that my sin is now on ToFN because its my PvP main and I moved it there for ranked we almost could of ended up running double Sin for S&V NiM.

Despite my Jugg being my main and that I love it to bits I actually have always enjoyed tanking more on my Sin even though is my alt (and despite it being inferior to the Jugg). Once the fun of *lolnodmgtaken* wares off I find the Sin more engaging

I will try to sum that up: You say that ppl don't wanna reroll because of pride and inertia but you think that it's best to reroll cause assassins are spiky, but on the other hand assassins are not subpar to a pt for sv nim and the player is more important then the class..... I don't get what you wanna tell us.
Do shadows have a substatial disadvantage at tanking pve content or do they not have? (That was the Initial question )

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.22.2013 , 11:37 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Do shadows have a substatial disadvantage at tanking pve content or do they not have? (That was the Initial question )
Yes, they do, but people still bring them because not everyone that plays a Shadow tank in progression content *wants* to play a VG or Guardian, nor do they have an equally (or similarly well) geared VG/Guardian that they can swap to if they need/want to.

It takes a *lot* to overcome class inertia. Shadows were *really* popular tanks for a *very* long time so there are a lot of people with Shadow tanks that still run with them even though it's been pretty much proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they're mechanically sub-par at the moment (thanks to the overwhelming importance of spike mitigation and general lack of value for mean mitigation). Scoundrel DPS is actually pretty damned good at the moment, but, because their DPS was *so bad* for *so very long*, you'll almost never see a DPS Scoundrel around.

To overcome class inertia, popular perception first has to be corrected to be relevant to the current state (i.e. the current relevant capabilities/weaknesses need to be common knowledge). Once the popular perception is actually appropriate for the given reality of the class, you *then* have to overcome the desire for people to stop playing the relevant class and/or level up a new class, which is difficult since many people will simply quit rather than reroll or will wait for the inequalities to be fixed, especially if it's not something that gets any kind of real response.

3 months is nowhere *near* the amount of time that it actually takes to overcome the inertia that gets referenced so often. Unless there is an explicit *major* event that causes/forces/encourages movement from one class to another (i.e. Scoundrel DPS nerfs right after release), it takes *very* long periods of time for the changes to actually develop, especially when you're dealing with a game that's been out for long enough for people to have well developed preferences. The time period gets extended even *more* when the answer isn't immediately obvious, like the Shadow tank spikiness problem (just look at the people that say "I don't see a problem" until they actually get involved in the discussion and completely reverse their position upon actually examining it), since the only way that people generally learn/care about it is when they begin analyzing their performance or participating in a bit of introspection concerning their class.

The forums are something of a canary in the mine for the community in general. The stuff the forums reacts to tends to be the stuff that the rest of the community as a whole reacts to afterwards after a time. It took over a month for the number crunchers on the forums to recognize the problem and several months after that for it to actually become a well known issue. It's going to take even *longer* for the general populous to become truly cognizant of it (i.e. more than just "why are Shadow tanks so much harder to tank with/heal?"), and it's only when the general populous has learned of it that the inertia will start being overcome. There's already a shift in top tier guilds moving away from their Shadow tanks. The rest of the game is going to follow suit in the future once they recognize *why*.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.22.2013 , 12:00 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Yes, they do, but people still bring them because not everyone that plays a Shadow tank in progression content *wants* to play a VG or Guardian, nor do they have an equally (or similarly well) geared VG/Guardian that they can swap to if they need/want to.

It takes a *lot* to overcome class inertia. Shadows were *really* popular tanks for a *very* long time so there are a lot of people with Shadow tanks that still run with them even though it's been pretty much proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they're mechanically sub-par at the moment (thanks to the overwhelming importance of spike mitigation and general lack of value for mean mitigation). Scoundrel DPS is actually pretty damned good at the moment, but, because their DPS was *so bad* for *so very long*, you'll almost never see a DPS Scoundrel around.

To overcome class inertia, popular perception first has to be corrected to be relevant to the current state (i.e. the current relevant capabilities/weaknesses need to be common knowledge). Once the popular perception is actually appropriate for the given reality of the class, you *then* have to overcome the desire for people to stop playing the relevant class and/or level up a new class, which is difficult since many people will simply quit rather than reroll or will wait for the inequalities to be fixed, especially if it's not something that gets any kind of real response.

3 months is nowhere *near* the amount of time that it actually takes to overcome the inertia that gets referenced so often. Unless there is an explicit *major* event that causes/forces/encourages movement from one class to another (i.e. Scoundrel DPS nerfs right after release), it takes *very* long periods of time for the changes to actually develop, especially when you're dealing with a game that's been out for long enough for people to have well developed preferences. The time period gets extended even *more* when the answer isn't immediately obvious, like the Shadow tank spikiness problem (just look at the people that say "I don't see a problem" until they actually get involved in the discussion and completely reverse their position upon actually examining it), since the only way that people generally learn/care about it is when they begin analyzing their performance or participating in a bit of introspection concerning their class.

The forums are something of a canary in the mine for the community in general. The stuff the forums reacts to tends to be the stuff that the rest of the community as a whole reacts to afterwards after a time. It took over a month for the number crunchers on the forums to recognize the problem and several months after that for it to actually become a well known issue. It's going to take even *longer* for the general populous to become truly cognizant of it (i.e. more than just "why are Shadow tanks so much harder to tank with/heal?"), and it's only when the general populous has learned of it that the inertia will start being overcome. There's already a shift in top tier guilds moving away from their Shadow tanks. The rest of the game is going to follow suit in the future once they recognize *why*.
I wonder why you did not answer to any of my posts about utility (Phase Walk) and all the other stuff i wrote to compare sin tanks with other tanks in this thread (nor about the tfb nim numbers in this class section, fuyris pve guide thread and dipsticks thread).
You just make a long wall of text with a single statement instead: "I think Sin Tanks are sub-par". I think i invalidated all your arguments on different threads, as you are not answering back at all in any of these threads.
I find it funny when you are just using a single statement packed in a wall of text, but don't care about anything i wrote before.

Edit: I am doing the content and i don't see any problem for 8 man nim. I see a problem for 16 man operations as I stated before.

Nerdcommando's Avatar


Nerdcommando
07.22.2013 , 01:41 PM | #25
I might have missed it, but what everyone is ignoring is the fact that things change. 2,4 may drop and all of sudden shadow/assasin tanking is "fixed" and now they beat out the others. Or they break juggs. etc

You cannot count on things remaining the same.

I would suggest leveling each role till about 30 in warzones and understanding the playstyle there (because they are very different in pvp). Starting at lvl 20 ish run a couple of flashpoints with each to understand their flavor.

Then pick the one you will enjoy for the long haul. Because they will rotate in terms of most useful/valuable in certain roles.

Also there is nothing in this game which compares to the druid in wow. Each AC can at most fill 2 of the 4 roles (Tank, Heal, Mele, Ranged). The druid switched back and forth alot from being useless to the best in all of the roles so I am sure you understand the up and down nature of the class balance game.
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy. - Steven Wright

YaanaOhtar's Avatar


YaanaOhtar
07.23.2013 , 05:06 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I wonder why you did not answer to any of my posts about utility (Phase Walk) and all the other stuff i wrote to compare sin tanks with other tanks in this thread (nor about the tfb nim numbers in this class section, fuyris pve guide thread and dipsticks thread).
You just make a long wall of text with a single statement instead: "I think Sin Tanks are sub-par". I think i invalidated all your arguments on different threads, as you are not answering back at all in any of these threads.
I find it funny when you are just using a single statement packed in a wall of text, but don't care about anything i wrote before.

Edit: I am doing the content and i don't see any problem for 8 man nim. I see a problem for 16 man operations as I stated before.
The idea is to do it in the correct gears not when your healer or the tank has the high gear compare to the Ops. If ur Healer is over geared, they can heal you just fine even with spike, If the tank is over gear they can deal with it just fine. You don't compare top gear to a lower content. Try to run a 55 HM OP with the full pt of wearing correct gear not your best gear. What correct gear ? what indicated in ur quest, not the gear that the OP will drop. For example: 55 HM FP can be done in level 53 gears as they said in the quest, you have to try it with the whole party in level 53 gear.

About Res stealth, it's not the job for tank, it is a nice ability BUT it is NOT tank job it's a bonus which does not needed for tank.

Phase walker is nice IF it last for the whole boss fight. Normally you don't even need Phase Walker since ur self heal and healer is more than enough. But when the spike appear, will the Phase Walker be there to help ?

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.23.2013 , 05:47 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by YaanaOhtar View Post
The idea is to do it in the correct gears not when your healer or the tank has the high gear compare to the Ops. If ur Healer is over geared, they can heal you just fine even with spike, If the tank is over gear they can deal with it just fine. You don't compare top gear to a lower content. Try to run a 55 HM OP with the full pt of wearing correct gear not your best gear. What correct gear ? what indicated in ur quest, not the gear that the OP will drop. For example: 55 HM FP can be done in level 53 gears as they said in the quest, you have to try it with the whole party in level 53 gear.

About Res stealth, it's not the job for tank, it is a nice ability BUT it is NOT tank job it's a bonus which does not needed for tank.

Phase walker is nice IF it last for the whole boss fight. Normally you don't even need Phase Walker since ur self heal and healer is more than enough. But when the spike appear, will the Phase Walker be there to help ?
There's no problem with 55 hm fp (i did run them in less the indicated gear (148) (aswell as the whole party)).

5% additional healing helps for recovering from spikes as there is currently not a single spike in this game (apart from terminate in 8 man nim, but that spike is visible and you can use your defensive cooldowns therefore) that kills you instantly.

I did post parses for thrasher, twh and dg nim, analyzed the spikes.... All this Information is alrdy there, why do i have to repeat all these things over and over again?
You are now the i don't know tenth Person or so, who is just stating the same wrong things but not a single one of you is saying anything about the data i provided....
Why do you think 5% additional healing on the healers is not needed? Have both your healers healed a raid in nim so far with black market stuff. If yes provide your data, then we can discuss further (as 5% additional healing is not important as you claim....)
Why do you think additional healing does not help to get a tank back to more health after a spike? I wanna understand that nonsense everyone is posting here...

YaanaOhtar's Avatar


YaanaOhtar
07.23.2013 , 02:13 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
There's no problem with 55 hm fp (i did run them in less the indicated gear (148) (aswell as the whole party)).

5% additional healing helps for recovering from spikes as there is currently not a single spike in this game (apart from terminate in 8 man nim, but that spike is visible and you can use your defensive cooldowns therefore) that kills you instantly.

I did post parses for thrasher, twh and dg nim, analyzed the spikes.... All this Information is alrdy there, why do i have to repeat all these things over and over again?
You are now the i don't know tenth Person or so, who is just stating the same wrong things but not a single one of you is saying anything about the data i provided....
Why do you think 5% additional healing on the healers is not needed? Have both your healers healed a raid in nim so far with black market stuff. If yes provide your data, then we can discuss further (as 5% additional healing is not important as you claim....)
Why do you think additional healing does not help to get a tank back to more health after a spike? I wanna understand that nonsense everyone is posting here...
You missed understand my post. The HM FP 55 is an example of gear level, NOT an example of shadow can't tank here, though i did it much harder compare to my guardian tank when i did with the full party of 53 gears - i had checked theirs gears.
And again you missed understand my post. I asked that with that cool down, when the spike appear, will the Phase Walker till be there ? And will shadow tank survive after the spike or spikes ? Remember the ability to get heal more does not equal to the ability to withstand a heavy hit or hits. Remember, the healers had to be real good to pay attention to shadow/assassin tank, if they don't have heal ready right away after the spikes or spike, it's a dead for them.

Now about the important of 5% increase in heal. I used it in HM OP only, however let's use logic, others tank don't need it right ? So Why does shadow/assassin need it ? To balance out theirs lost of 10% armor ? If it is truth then why is it just last for 2 min and not a permanent skill ? And in all fight, tank and healer are never in the same place, so for shadow to have it after 2:45 minutes they have to move to healer - IF that possible that's mean you have to wait a t least 1 min to have phase walker up again- and during 60 sec of cool down, if spikes appear that's mean phase walker is useless. WIth all these information i concluded that Phase Walker is a useless skill compare to just give us 10% armor back or just a 5% healing passive cause it's clearly just like Stealth res, It is not an abilities for tank.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.23.2013 , 02:27 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by YaanaOhtar View Post
You missed understand my post. The HM FP 55 is an example of gear level, NOT an example of shadow can't tank here, though i did it much harder compare to my guardian tank when i did with the full party of 53 gears - i had checked theirs gears.
And again you missed understand my post. I asked that with that cool down, when the spike appear, will the Phase Walker till be there ? And will shadow tank survive after the spike or spikes ? Remember the ability to get heal more does not equal to the ability to withstand a heavy hit or hits. Remember, the healers had to be real good to pay attention to shadow/assassin tank, if they don't have heal ready right away after the spikes or spike, it's a dead for them.

Now about the important of 5% increase in heal. I used it in HM OP only, however let's use logic, others tank don't need it right ? So Why does shadow/assassin need it ? To balance out theirs lost of 10% armor ? If it is truth then why is it just last for 2 min and not a permanent skill ? And in all fight, tank and healer are never in the same place, so for shadow to have it after 2:45 minutes they have to move to healer - IF that possible that's mean you have to wait a t least 1 min to have phase walker up again- and during 60 sec of cool down, if spikes appear that's mean phase walker is useless. WIth all these information i concluded that Phase Walker is a useless skill compare to just give us 10% armor back or just a 5% healing passive cause it's clearly just like Stealth res, It is not an abilities for tank.
I don't know why sin tanks have this ability (ask bw) but i doubt it's because of balancing armor.
Am i understanding you right, that you assume that it's not a balacing out as Phase walk is not a permanent ability (as permanent armor would be)?
First awall, if a boss does not have a cleave (or an aoe ability) healers and tanks can stand in the same place (thats not never the case). You can move 2 sec before the 45 sec run off so it's not a 60 sec cooldown (no one needs 15 seconds to his healers with force Speed ).

You should normally use it so, that you have it fully available during all the difficult healing phases of a boss (that actually seperates most of the sin tanks).
A page before there's a big discussion about the usage of Phase Walk, why are you not responding to that, as you can't rly draw a conclusion about the usage of Phase walk when you are not referring to any of the post about the usage of Phase Walk .
5% healing passive would be worse then Phase Walk (also buffs raid healing..).
10% more armor would probably be way better then Phase Walk, yes.

Berjiz's Avatar


Berjiz
07.23.2013 , 05:06 PM | #30
One thing I haven't seen mentioned about phase walk is its horrible animation. It's floating a bit over the ground so it hides most aoe circles under it. This means that you have to be very careful in fights with any kind of aoe markers, especially the ones with random aoe(like titan 6 airstrike).

Does anyone know if it hides the green aoes on DG?