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Jack of all Trades Tank Class?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Jack of all Trades Tank Class?

Helig's Avatar


Helig
07.21.2013 , 02:30 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're stating those capabilities without really getting into what the other tanks get, not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP asked about role and PvP/PvE versatility. Essentially, rather than just trying to quantify versatility of performance in a single role (and, honestly, as a tank, Guardians actually get more since they've got a lot more general combat utility; the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling) you should be looking at whether the class, as a whole, can perform in all 4 of the given pairings:

<..........>
There's one major flaw in your argument - you're debating from the point of current balance. It always changes in MMOs. Class versatility is determined by class design, first and foremost. If a person grabs a class that is strong/viable in multiple roles/playstyles now, but which doesn't sit right with them in regards to mechanics, dynamics and aesthetics, this person will be merely satisfied till the class gets brought down, or other classes get brought up to outshine it.

If the guy isn't aiming for hardcore play (which doesn't seem to be the case), he should roll a class that he's most comfortable with, and not the one that is the strongest at the moment. Shadow tanks only have trouble with some "1%" content (ergo, content which 1% of players even attempt). They do very well in regular PvP beyond "node guard" duties. Shadow damage is more than enough for casual/semi-casual PvE content, and is very efficient in PvP, due to high spikes. As far as Vanguards go, they're perfectly solid for PvE content as tanks, they're very flexible tactically in PvP (I'm still drooling at the thought of baseline hydraulic overrides each time I fire up my PT). Damage - the 4-button spec got nerfed. Prototype/Tactics is solid. Doesn't parse as well as Marauders, but enough for casual/semicasual pve, and does well enough in regular PvP thanks to solid survivability and utility. Not to mention several viable PvP hybrids.

TL: DR version - all tank-capable classes are perfectly viable for non-hardcore playstyles, and are fully able to shine in the right hands. Balance in MMOs always changes, and the guy should go for the class that he's comfortable with, and not the one that is the strongest right now.


Additionally (for the OP), I also want to say that, after levelling all tank classes in tank specs (Guardian twice - 1.0 and 2.0 versions), I can assure the OP that the Shadow is the easiest one to solo heroic content, to solo PvP and to level with.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.21.2013 , 12:36 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Guardians have some heavy disadvantages as a pve tank.
Let me break these down for you.

Quote:
They have the worst mean migation (look at dipsticks threat, look at combat logs..), As i shadow tank i need atleast about 200 hps less healing.
In the current state of the game, mean mitigation means absolutely *nothing*, and, even then, Guardians are tied with VGs. Shadows have *always* had the highest mean mitigation, nor did I say that they never did. However, at this point in time, it's not really an advantage.

Quote:
Sin tanks also have the best single target dmg with powertechs (1,6 k dmg on thrasher) while Juggernauts (best parse 1,4 k) lack here aswell
I'd be *really* curious to see these because everything I've seen puts all 3 of the tanks within 100 DPS of each other. Pretty much the *only* thing that's well balanced between the tanks at the moment is damage/threat.

Quote:
Next thing is that Juggernauts are the only tanking class which needs to be permanently in melee range to do good dmg. This is especially a heavy disadvantage for the dg nim fight (Kelsaras discharge....).
Actually, VGs need to be in melee a *lot*. Stockstrike is their bread and butter. Without it, their damage takes a *massive* dump. In fact, *all* tanks need to be in melee constantly in order to not have substantially decreased damage/threat. Shadows and VG simply have less diminished effect when at short range (Shadows less than either VGs or Guardians but they still take a loss without PA from DS).

Of course, as a tank, you're not really spending any/much time *at* short range (the *only* time I've seen it be particularly useful is when tanking trash with knockbacks: you can stand back at short range and the knockback will never happen). At best, it's a minute disadvantage to not have short range functionality (or a minute advantage to have it).

Quote:
Next thing i want to know is why you think that Juggernauts have the best utility out of all 3 tanking classes. (Because of their aoe taunt Barrier?!). I don't think that can compete with the 5% healing increase, stealth rez.... from sin tanks for example.
Phase Walk is worthless, which means that Shadow's Shelter is as well. It *would* be decent were the implementation on Phase Walk not completely and utterly terrible. Stealth rez, for a tank, isn't particularly useful since you should be *tanking*. It's actually a *lot* less useful on a tank than on a DPS or healer because of this.

As to Guardians, the AoE taunt shield is a *massive* advantage (albeit one that I've yet to see many Guardians actually capitalize on, which is strange since it's a *really* easy thing to capitalize on). Any time there is AoE damage, the Guardian can reduce it by a decent amount, and they can do it at pretty much *every* AoE damage interval thanks to the 45 second CD. Guardian Leap for the damage reduction/threat drop has a lot of usefulness as well (once again, not one used all that often but can be *really* easily bounced back from with Force Leap).

Guardians have a *definitely* edge up because their utility is actually *designed well*. Phase Walk is worthless thanks to its design, and stealth rez on a tank is of incredibly questionable value.

Quote:
Juggernauts have the best CDs i give you that but the difference between Juggernaut CDs and Sin Tanks CDs is not that big (50% m/r increase with a shorter cd for sin tank and a 2 sec invicibility for juggernauts) (25% dr with a 15% heal with a shorter cooldown for sin tank vs 40% dr for juggernauts) (saber reflect vs force shroud where saber reflect is better atm i think) (and Force Cloak vs nothing on jugger side there)
Deflection doesn't pack 25% F/T resistance and the "longer CD" is only 30 seconds longer. Considering the relevant times that you *want* to use Deflection/Saber Ward, the 30 seconds longer actually doesn't mean *anything* because those cycles are long enough that the 30 seconds don't actually *matter*.

If you're comparing Battle Readiness to Warding Call, you better be ready to bring in Enure (which you seem to have forgotten). Warding Call actually reduces damage by *more* than Battle Readiness (BR is 40% DR to K/E but only ~30% reduction to I/E damage), and Enure provides a *lot* more than Battle Readiness does since Enure provides double the effective hp immediately and 50% more over the entire duration (heal v. temp hp is actually a comparatively pointless comparison: the abilities are used for short term hp increases; Battle Readiness heals you whereas Enure provides you a cushion of hp for you to *receive* heals; in both cases, before the ability runs out, you should be at full health). On top of that, the fact that Enure and Warding Call are *separate* abilities increases their value since you can choose to get *either* the hp cushion *or* the damage reduction. Shadows have to choose one or the other (and it often ends up just being "damage reduction").

Quote:
What do you mean with damage profile? Is that another word for spike dmg?
Incoming damage profile refers to the chances of the relevant attack resolutions to occur and the comparative effectiveness of said attack resolutions. It's a more specific way of saying "spikiness". Guardians have a *really* smooth incoming damage profile, just like VGs. That's a *big* feather in their cap.

Quote:
Migation: Sin > Powertech > Juggernaut
Cooldowns: Juggernaut > Sin > Powertech
Utility: Sin > Juggernaut > Powertech
ST dmg: Sin = Powertech > Juggernaut
AOE dmg/threat: Probably Powertechs can deal the most dmg with death from above and all their other aoe abilitys, sin tanks have the most consistent threat with 2 low cooldown high threat aoe abilities and juggernauts can do a very good aoe with saber reflect aswell. I think here ist an overall tie.
Let's break this down by actually adding *more* than just the categories you mentioned and then forgot about while adding a bit more information to them.

Mean mitigation (negligible importance in the current state of the game; healers are all more than capable of handling maintenance healing indefinitely)
Shadow > VG >=Guardian (VGs and Guardians are so close they might as well be equal; the value slides depending upon the magnitude of incoming DPS because the Guardian absorb shield is a flat value)

Spikiness (massive importance in the current state of the game)
VG >= Guardian > Shadow (VGs are *ever* so slightly smoother but not to any extent that actually makes it noticeable or have an appreciable effect; Shadows are *worlds* behind here)

CDs (huge importance)
Guardian > Shadow > VG (VGs are a lot worse off than the other two, but it's not really a "close call" between Guardians and Shadows at the moment; the Guardian CD suite is absurd given current content)

Utility (moderate importance)
Guardian > Shadow > VG (Shadows would be tied for Guardians were it not for the fact that they're *tanks* for stealth rez and Phase Walk was implemented in pretty much the worse way imaginable)

ST damage (moderate importance)
Shadow = VG >= Guardian (Shadows and VGs have a *slightly* edge up on Guardians, if that; the major difference is whether there are forced tank swaps, which will drop Shadow and Guardian DPS by a significant factor but not affect VGs appreciably)

ST threat (moderate-heavy importance)
Shadow = VG = Guardian (Guardian threat gets bumped up because they've got excellent high threat abilities)

AoE damage (moderate importance)
Shadow > Guardian > VG (Shadows have Force Breach and Slow Time; Guardians have Force Sweep and Guardian Slash, both of which got buffed *massively*, on top of Saber Reflect; VGs have the HiB cleave which is negigible, Mortar Volley which is on a 1 min CD but can't be really effectively used while already in combat thanks to the minimum range, and Pulse Cannon, which is on a longer CD than any of the other tank CDs; for those AoEs *not* on CDs, Cyclone Slash is the best by *far* thanks to having the lowest comparative cost and talent buffs, followed by Explosive Surge which is better than default but still expensive as hell, and Whirling Blow is the worst because it has next to no talent support *and* has disgustingly high cost)

AoE threat (moderate importance)
Guardian >= Shadow > VG (the ranking depends upon the situation; for trash where you need snap AoE threat across a large area, *nothing* beats Saber Reflect; for closely packed enemy groups, it's pretty much equivalent all around; VGs are at a *slight* disadvantage because they don't have appreciable high threat effects, whereas the AoEs for Guardians and Shadows both have improved threat generation)

When you properly explain the relevant capabilities, Guardians are friggin' *amazing*. In the most important categories (spikiness and CDs), Guardians are either the best or tied for it. For the least important one (mean mitigation), they're tied for the worst, not that it really means anything because mean mitigation means *nothing* any more. For the areas of moderate importance, they've got a definite leg up in one category (utility) because their utility is actually designed well and the differences for the others (ST/AoE damage/threat) are so minute that they don't really matter.

Quote:
But for every other operation,.... sith assassins are still the best tanks, with powertechs and juggs coming afterwards.
I'd be *very* curious to see how you think Shadows are the best tanks for all non-NiM content, unless you only ever consider running content in top tier gear. If you're running content in gear *appropriate for it*, the spikiness issue is *always* an issue. SM and HM S&V will *still* spike the living hell out of a Shadow, regardless of what you do, which, unless you've overgeared it, *is still* going to kill you.

The *only* reason people keep saying it's only a problem in the current top tier of content (whatever that top tier might be at the time) is because their viewpoint continually changes based upon the current BiS gearing. If you actually look at what the content is *designed* to be run in rather than what the BiS people are currently wearing, the problems are consistent and present for all group content at 55.

No matter what you're running, you'd actually be better off with a Guardian or VG at the moment. It might not be a major deal for HM FPs or SM Ops, but it's *still* something you have to look at. The higher difficulties don't create these problems out of whole cloth. They've been noted to exist the entire time. The higher difficulties exacerbated these problems in an exponential manner such that even the most *obtuse* people are now recognizing it on NiM when observant people have been noticing it for a good long while.

Quote:
Edit: For your PvE dps part: single target dps of all 3 acs is more or less excactly on par. (Just compare the combat logs on styrak and thrasher for single target dps). None of the classes is rly lagging behind in single target dps (A dummy fight is not a real fight...). AOE-vise it is a little different, but for the encounters its not important to have 4 aoe dps.
Actually, I *have* compared the parses on Thrasher, though I'll admit I didn't look too closely at VGs (I mostly listened to the VG DPSers that I know about comparative performance). As it stands, Guardians edge out Shadows and VGs by about ~100. It's not massive "omg, this are be turrble!" but pulling 2.4-2.5k rather than 2.5-2.6k represents a noticeable decrease in damage dealt, especially when you consider that the 2.5-2.6k isn't actually top tier DPS.

Of course, I've never actually claimed to be a DPS expert. For DPS, I mostly act as an aggregate of the various people/posts/information I have access to rather than coming up with stuff on my own so I don't really guarantee said information to the same level as my tank info. It is nice to see that the comparative DPS levels between the 3 tank ACs is closer than I was lead to believe.
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THoK-Zeus
07.21.2013 , 03:02 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

I'd be *really* curious to see these because everything I've seen puts all 3 of the tanks within 100 DPS of each other. Pretty much the *only* thing that's well balanced between the tanks at the moment is damage/threat.
I just analyzed the top parses from all the tank classes on hm styrak and hm thrasher fight from torparse. I always got the same results with the top parses from pt/sin while Juggernauts/Guardians seem to always lack 150-200 dps. When you can provide parses with about 1,6 k dmg on thrasher and 1,2k dmg on styrak for them, that would be nice, so far i did not find any.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Actually, VGs need to be in melee a *lot*. Stockstrike is their bread and butter. Without it, their damage takes a *massive* dump. In fact, *all* tanks need to be in melee constantly in order to not have substantially decreased damage/threat. Shadows and VG simply have less diminished effect when at short range (Shadows less than either VGs or Guardians but they still take a loss without PA from DS).

Of course, as a tank, you're not really spending any/much time *at* short range (the *only* time I've seen it be particularly useful is when tanking trash with knockbacks: you can stand back at short range and the knockback will never happen). At best, it's a minute disadvantage to not have short range functionality (or a minute advantage to have it).
Well at dg nim on heirad and ciphas phase you spend a lot of time running around and doing as much dmg from short range as you can(as you dont wanna get aoe dmg on the mdps or the other tank). I find that to be a rly important advantage for sin/vg on dg nim fight compared to juggs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

Phase Walk is worthless, which means that Shadow's Shelter is as well. It *would* be decent were the implementation on Phase Walk not completely and utterly terrible. Stealth rez, for a tank, isn't particularly useful since you should be *tanking*. It's actually a *lot* less useful on a tank than on a DPS or healer because of this.

As to Guardians, the AoE taunt shield is a *massive* advantage (albeit one that I've yet to see many Guardians actually capitalize on, which is strange since it's a *really* easy thing to capitalize on). Any time there is AoE damage, the Guardian can reduce it by a decent amount, and they can do it at pretty much *every* AoE damage interval thanks to the 45 second CD. Guardian Leap for the damage reduction/threat drop has a lot of usefulness as well (once again, not one used all that often but can be *really* easily bounced back from with Force Leap).

Guardians have a *definitely* edge up because their utility is actually *designed well*. Phase Walk is worthless thanks to its design, and stealth rez on a tank is of incredibly questionable value.
I dont see where Phase Walk is worthless. You can use it for tc, twh, dg, op9, tfb, Titan, thrasher, Operation chief, olok, cartel warlords and styrak. You can use it partially for dash. You can not rly use it for kephess.
For tc: Update it during laser.
For the writing horror: Update it after killing jealous male. Healers can run out before they cleanse
For dread guards: update it during ciphas phase or while having force leech. Healers can aswell run out when they see red circles.
For Kephess: You can't rly place it in the middle of the area, (blue Tank circle....) you can instead try to place one on the sides which will give the Phase Walk atleast some uptime.
For op9: Just place it in the middle.
For Terror from beyond: Place it at the entrance update it when you come back.
For Dash'rode: You can place one in the beginning and another one during the fight but it won't have full uptime for the healers, so here it's just partially useful.
For Titan: Update it after Launch.
For Thrasher: Update it after you killed snipers.
For Operations Chief: Will hold long enough as Boss fight is not so long.
For Olok: Place it in the middle you have always time to update it.
For Cartel Warlords: Force Speed away from sunder, place Phase Walk where your healers stand and continue normal kiting.
For Styrak: Place it at the skull where the big apparition spawns. You have time to update it.
Thats still 11/13 bosses where you can use it very good and 2 where you can use it for some time during the fight. It seems we have a different understanding of "worthless".

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

Deflection doesn't pack 25% F/T resistance and the "longer CD" is only 30 seconds longer. Considering the relevant times that you *want* to use Deflection/Saber Ward, the 30 seconds longer actually doesn't mean *anything* because those cycles are long enough that the 30 seconds don't actually *matter*..
Yes i forgot to write the 25% f/t resistance down. Most of the time in nim you will use your Defensive Cooldowns on cd and not in cycles as most of the attacking sequences are on way faster cycles (30 s most of the time) (Except for Grenade and Terminate.).

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

If you're comparing Battle Readiness to Warding Call, you better be ready to bring in Enure (which you seem to have forgotten). Warding Call actually reduces damage by *more* than Battle Readiness (BR is 40% DR to K/E but only ~30% reduction to I/E damage), and Enure provides a *lot* more than Battle Readiness does since Enure provides double the effective hp immediately and 50% more over the entire duration (heal v. temp hp is actually a comparatively pointless comparison: the abilities are used for short term hp increases; Battle Readiness heals you whereas Enure provides you a cushion of hp for you to *receive* heals; in both cases, before the ability runs out, you should be at full health). On top of that, the fact that Enure and Warding Call are *separate* abilities increases their value since you can choose to get *either* the hp cushion *or* the damage reduction. Shadows have to choose one or the other (and it often ends up just being "damage reduction").
Yes i forgot Enure aswell you can change my not so big difference in a recognizable difference. The thing you forgot is the use of Battle Readiness as a cooldown that helps to lower the pressure on the healer as he can heal or rez other perons while you heal yourself and reduce the incoming dmg and increase your self heal. Enure is just providing a lot of hp but is not rly lowering the Overall pressure on the healer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

Incoming damage profile refers to the chances of the relevant attack resolutions to occur and the comparative effectiveness of said attack resolutions. It's a more specific way of saying "spikiness". Guardians have a *really* smooth incoming damage profile, just like VGs. That's a *big* feather in their cap.
Ok i did understand it correctly then.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

Let's break this down by actually adding *more* than just the categories you mentioned and then forgot about while adding a bit more information to them.

Mean mitigation (negligible importance in the current state of the game; healers are all more than capable of handling maintenance healing indefinitely)
Shadow > VG >=Guardian (VGs and Guardians are so close they might as well be equal; the value slides depending upon the magnitude of incoming DPS because the Guardian absorb shield is a flat value)

Spikiness (massive importance in the current state of the game)
VG >= Guardian > Shadow (VGs are *ever* so slightly smoother but not to any extent that actually makes it noticeable or have an appreciable effect; Shadows are *worlds* behind here)

CDs (huge importance)
Guardian > Shadow > VG (VGs are a lot worse off than the other two, but it's not really a "close call" between Guardians and Shadows at the moment; the Guardian CD suite is absurd given current content)

Utility (moderate importance)
Guardian > Shadow > VG (Shadows would be tied for Guardians were it not for the fact that they're *tanks* for stealth rez and Phase Walk was implemented in pretty much the worse way imaginable)

ST damage (moderate importance)
Shadow = VG >= Guardian (Shadows and VGs have a *slightly* edge up on Guardians, if that; the major difference is whether there are forced tank swaps, which will drop Shadow and Guardian DPS by a significant factor but not affect VGs appreciably)

ST threat (moderate-heavy importance)
Shadow = VG = Guardian (Guardian threat gets bumped up because they've got excellent high threat abilities)

AoE damage (moderate importance)
Shadow > Guardian > VG (Shadows have Force Breach and Slow Time; Guardians have Force Sweep and Guardian Slash, both of which got buffed *massively*, on top of Saber Reflect; VGs have the HiB cleave which is negigible, Mortar Volley which is on a 1 min CD but can't be really effectively used while already in combat thanks to the minimum range, and Pulse Cannon, which is on a longer CD than any of the other tank CDs; for those AoEs *not* on CDs, Cyclone Slash is the best by *far* thanks to having the lowest comparative cost and talent buffs, followed by Explosive Surge which is better than default but still expensive as hell, and Whirling Blow is the worst because it has next to no talent support *and* has disgustingly high cost)

AoE threat (moderate importance)
Guardian >= Shadow > VG (the ranking depends upon the situation; for trash where you need snap AoE threat across a large area, *nothing* beats Saber Reflect; for closely packed enemy groups, it's pretty much equivalent all around; VGs are at a *slight* disadvantage because they don't have appreciable high threat effects, whereas the AoEs for Guardians and Shadows both have improved threat generation)

When you properly explain the relevant capabilities, Guardians are friggin' *amazing*. In the most important categories (spikiness and CDs), Guardians are either the best or tied for it. For the least important one (mean mitigation), they're tied for the worst, not that it really means anything because mean mitigation means *nothing* any more. For the areas of moderate importance, they've got a definite leg up in one category (utility) because their utility is actually designed well and the differences for the others (ST/AoE damage/threat) are so minute that they don't really matter.
For mean migation just compare dipstiks calculations, without the use of CDs the pt has way better migation then the juggernaut.

I think i wrote enough about the uses of Phase Walk for the different boss Encounters.

For the spikiness. I have never encountered this problem in any 8 man or 4 man content i ran so far. I did hm fp with pugs in about campaign gear (probably less) without any problems, i did hm (at 2.0)/nim ops in 8 man without any problems (so as dieing instantly). I see some more overhealing from the healers on myself then on the other pt tank, but just to a degree where my additional migation/utility is still atleast on par.

For 16 man content as i stated before it's clear that they have to change sth.. The additional boss spike dmg is a disadvantage for sin tanks (On 16 man hm thrasher is an example tough hes still tankable). I just know 1 tank that did tfb nim on 16 man and hes stacking hp (more then 45k).

On 8 man nim tough, most of the guilds did do the encounter with atleast 1 sin tank the world first and second always had a sin tank.

I see we aggree (more or less) on the rest.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

I'd be *very* curious to see how you think Shadows are the best tanks for all non-NiM content, unless you only ever consider running content in top tier gear. If you're running content in gear *appropriate for it*, the spikiness issue is *always* an issue. SM and HM S&V will *still* spike the living hell out of a Shadow, regardless of what you do, which, unless you've overgeared it, *is still* going to kill you.

The *only* reason people keep saying it's only a problem in the current top tier of content (whatever that top tier might be at the time) is because their viewpoint continually changes based upon the current BiS gearing. If you actually look at what the content is *designed* to be run in rather than what the BiS people are currently wearing, the problems are consistent and present for all group content at 55.

No matter what you're running, you'd actually be better off with a Guardian or VG at the moment. It might not be a major deal for HM FPs or SM Ops, but it's *still* something you have to look at. The higher difficulties don't create these problems out of whole cloth. They've been noted to exist the entire time. The higher difficulties exacerbated these problems in an exponential manner such that even the most *obtuse* people are now recognizing it on NiM when observant people have been noticing it for a good long while..
The math is just not giving this. The additional amount of overhealing i see for 8 man content is negated by the additional amount of migation and utility. For the nim ops the additional healing from phase walk was always more then the additional amount of overhealing i got.
I don't have old data from old hm parses but the whole time i am tanking since 2.0 i never encountered any problem of insta-dieing (unless i ran 16 man) and the average overhealing i get was never more then it should be.

I see sin tanks as best tank for 8 man as i think their utility (5% additional healing is just amazing) and their mean migation is better even when you count some spikeness (overhealing) from 8 man content in. They deal more dmg to bosses, need less healing on average during a boss fight and dont need to stand in melee range all the time for damage (their only melee range abilities are thrash ~10% of the dmg, Maul ~6% and Assassinate ~10%, so its rly a small portion of their attacks). The only significant advantage juggernauts have is their possible reaction to heavy unintended damage when they did not blow their cooldowns before. The rest goes in my opinion to the Assassin.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

Actually, I *have* compared the parses on Thrasher, though I'll admit I didn't look too closely at VGs (I mostly listened to the VG DPSers that I know about comparative performance). As it stands, Guardians edge out Shadows and VGs by about ~100. It's not massive "omg, this are be turrble!" but pulling 2.4-2.5k rather than 2.5-2.6k represents a noticeable decrease in damage dealt, especially when you consider that the 2.5-2.6k isn't actually top tier DPS.

Of course, I've never actually claimed to be a DPS expert. For DPS, I mostly act as an aggregate of the various people/posts/information I have access to rather than coming up with stuff on my own so I don't really guarantee said information to the same level as my tank info. It is nice to see that the comparative DPS levels between the 3 tank ACs is closer than I was lead to believe.
I posted sth. about single target dmg top parses in another section. The best parses from sith assassin are actually above 2,8 k on these fights. The only thing i got from the analysis is that sorc single target dmg is rly low (Maybe all the sorcs turned healer i dont know ).

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Kitru
07.21.2013 , 03:16 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
On 8 man nim tough, most of the guilds did do the encounter with atleast 1 sin tank the world first and second always had a sin tank.
You're confusing choice with inertia. A lot of world firsts still get done with a Shad/Sin because those are what the top tier tanks have played in the past. Those are the tanks that they actually have, geared and played appropriately for the content. This has *no* impact upon whether they are actually the best tank classs for the job. If you actually *check* with the world first guilds, they'll actually *tell you* that the Shad/Sin is a suboptimal tank for deep progression content and that they would much rather run with Guardians. In fact, most of them are actually swapping out their Shadows for Guardians and VGs. There were several threads on this subject on the 2.2 PTS before it got cleared. "First" is not the same "best". They're pretty much always done with what is available as opposed to the absolutely perfect composition.
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THoK-Zeus
07.21.2013 , 03:34 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're confusing choice with inertia. A lot of world firsts still get done with a Shad/Sin because those are what the top tier tanks have played in the past. Those are the tanks that they actually have, geared and played appropriately for the content. This has *no* impact upon whether they are actually the best tank classs for the job. If you actually *check* with the world first guilds, they'll actually *tell you* that the Shad/Sin is a suboptimal tank for deep progression content and that they would much rather run with Guardians. In fact, most of them are actually swapping out their Shadows for Guardians and VGs. There were several threads on this subject on the 2.2 PTS before it got cleared. "First" is not the same "best". They're pretty much always done with what is available as opposed to the absolutely perfect composition.
I run the nim content with my sin and i don't wanna run the content with a pt/jugg nor did my healers tell me to switch my tank or replace me. I am just quoting the world first guilds now as i don't wanna ask them all personally.

Quote: Originally Posted by insaneric View Post
Assassins are just as viable at top levels of PvE as any other class (first 2 guild to clear NiM S&V ran a sin tank). They however require slightly different itemization (little bit more endurance) and a more reactionary (or predictive) play-style.

So if you want to put in time to learn/gear your tank well and learn how to handle the fights then assassins are great. However if you want to just experience a bit endgame content and see the storyline then Juggs are probably a better choice. If you're interested in just leveling then any class is fine.
Quote: Originally Posted by insaneric View Post
Assassins tanks are fine except for "Terminate" by "Operations Chief" which is a badly designed move rather than making assassins a badly designed tank.

I think I said this during nim dg progression in terms of pushing a bit more raid dps, but I think 1 Sin and 1 Jugg are best atm. I'd still rather run 2 assassins than 0 assassins.

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
07.21.2013 , 04:09 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I run the nim content with my sin and i don't wanna run the content with a pt/jugg nor did my healers tell me to switch my tank or replace me. I am just quoting the world first guilds now as i don't wanna ask them all personally.
The "inertia" idea people are coming up with for why Sin tanks are still being brought (over 3 months since 2.0 has been out) is complete ********. That guy you quoted "Insaneric" also stated that he has all 3 tanks at 55 and specifically *chose* to bring his Sin tank over any of them because of its utility. Not that I expect reality to change the minds of people who believe Sin tanks are disadvantaged in general. When people have no objective understanding of classes and simply dismiss almost every advantage of a character as *useless* or close to it, the discussion is just ripe with bias.

To be fair, this same kind of thing happens in DPS discussions as well, especially when there is a huge focus on dummy parses. People just have no idea how important factors like having an armor debuff, and being under 30% are for certain classes. Not understanding context is a big weakness in most people and when they look at numbers in a vacuum, it's no surprise they are dead wrong.
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Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

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nagatamen
07.21.2013 , 08:19 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I dont see where Phase Walk is worthless. You can use it for tc, twh, dg, op9, tfb, Titan, thrasher, Operation chief, olok, cartel warlords and styrak. You can use it partially for dash. You can not rly use it for kephess.
For tc: Update it during laser.
For the writing horror: Update it after killing jealous male. Healers can run out before they cleanse
For dread guards: update it during ciphas phase or while having force leech. Healers can aswell run out when they see red circles.
For Kephess: You can't rly place it in the middle of the area, (blue Tank circle....) you can instead try to place one on the sides which will give the Phase Walk atleast some uptime.
For op9: Just place it in the middle.
For Terror from beyond: Place it at the entrance update it when you come back.
For Dash'rode: You can place one in the beginning and another one during the fight but it won't have full uptime for the healers, so here it's just partially useful.
For Titan: Update it after Launch.
For Thrasher: Update it after you killed snipers.
For Operations Chief: Will hold long enough as Boss fight is not so long.
For Olok: Place it in the middle you have always time to update it.
For Cartel Warlords: Force Speed away from sunder, place Phase Walk where your healers stand and continue normal kiting.
For Styrak: Place it at the skull where the big apparition spawns. You have time to update it.
Thats still 11/13 bosses where you can use it very good and 2 where you can use it for some time during the fight. It seems we have a different understanding of "worthless".
To make sure we're on the same page, Phase Walk has a 1.5 second cast time (irritating but it can be worked with if you're not the active tank). After it's been cast, Phase Walk will remain active/present for 2 minutes (120 seconds). When the effect is used or wears off the ability goes on cooldown for 45 seconds. The reason Kitru claims it's worthless (from my understanding of his view point) is the 1.5 second cast and the 45 second cooldown. That 45 second cooldown is a long time and a lot can happen during that time (other tank dies tying you up, hiding behind a rock, etc...) and it really breaks up the usability of the ability.

TC: Yes you can put it down during the laser phase, assuming you're not having to get an isotope barrel and it's off the 45 second cd. I have never been able to keep it up 100% of the time it was available.

Writhing Horror: Yes it is perfectly viable to drop it when you said to drop it, assuming it is off the 45 second cooldown.

Dread Guard: Yes your time slots are good, assuming it's off the 45 second cooldown.

Kephess: You got the biggest problem with that fight listed, it's hard to put it in a usable spot for it's whole duration.

Operator: Center is a good easy to remember spot, but a fair number of guilds I know use the center for deletion meetups which can be disastrous if that mechanic doesn't get handled properly (or bugs out even when it is handled properly) thus killing one or both of your healers and anyone else in the center. That being said I try to put it up when I can on the outer ring, but I usually try to put it up when extra healing is needed most (Regulators hit really hard).

Terror: Phase 1, it's awkward to place but semi-feasible as long as your healer isn't running poison, but it will limit how many people actually get to use it. Phase 2, it is almost usable. What I mean is that home platform is good for it, but the timing between screams does not line up with the 2 minute 45 second usage window, meaning there will be more time without it up than with it up, and that's assuming that you have plenty of time to run from tank platform to home and cast it. Also forget about using the teleport ability to get back to home platform, it has bugged out every time I've tried to use it. (This fight is the one that saddens me the most about it as it seems perfect for this ability)

Dash'rode: You nailed it again, the 45 second cooldown makes it nearly unusable if you use it when getting lost or pulling it up as you swap shields on HM (and your shield time is better spent running to the next generator on Nightmare then heading back to where you were).

Titan 6: Update after the launch won't work because of the 45 second cooldown. Assuming you didn't put the circle on a rock, there's a few ways to use it for the launch phase. First you manually cancel the buff off your bar as he's casting launch which teleports you in path of the launch wave and therefore die. Second you cancel it right after Huge Grenade (thus denying the healers the benefit from healing) and hope you placed it in a spot that won't interfere with you getting to a rock. Three you teleport to the circle after the launch wave passes it. Option one kills you and still has you waiting on the cooldown, option two leaves you waiting on the 45 second cooldown for a decent chunk of the phase (usually Titan will ground stomp the other tank and start wrecking havoc on the raid before it's off cooldown). Option 3 suffers the same problem as option 2 but the cooldown takes even longer into the phase to be ready, but it does have the advantage of getting you out of a rock earlier (and safely). If you did put it on a rock I have no clue what would happen or how/why to use it that way, please feel free to enlighten me. The best I've ever been able to do on this fight is every other launch, but that can leave you without it for the final burn phase when bonus healing is needed the most. Usually I put it down for the first phase and for the burn phase, but that still leaves it absent for most of the fight.

Thrasher: Updating it after you kill snipers is a good time, assuming that it's off the 45 second cooldown.

Operations Chief: Yes you are completely right, no reason not to use it for the fight.

Olok: Yes you are completely right, no reason not to have it up whenever possible (you'll be fighting the 45 second cooldown at times though) although you probably won't really need it once you've cleared off the board.

Cartel Warlord: This is a tricky fight for the ability. Your sprint and drop method might work, but you run the risk of a fixate next to the healers and your reaction time not being fast enough or not facing Sunder to taunt off. You should be able to work around those issues, but it's safer and more reliable to not do that. Usually I cast it at the beginning so healers get the bonus healing while all four are up and I cast it after Sunder dies so healers have the bonus healing for Tu'Chuk.

Dread Master: This is a timing fight. The healing can be useful and free up heals to dps a little, but only if your timing is good. The parts of this fight you want the healing bonus is for the Kell Drake (pt 1) and for Dread Master/Kell Drake (pt 2). The rest of the fight shouldn't need extra healing unless your tanks are positioning Dread Master in a stupid way. If you wanted to keep it up for the whole fight you're going to be butting heads with the 45 second cooldown always popping up when you don't have time to cast it (Lightning Chain or the "clones").

Hopefully you noticed a common theme running through all those fights, the 45 second cooldown makes the ability difficult to use for a small benefit that usually isn't needed. Is the ability totally worthless? Not at all. Is it a make or break ability for the healers? Not at all. Is it an ability that makes healers demand a potentially death prone tank into the raid? Not at all. The ability has it's uses, but the way it functions is prohibitive to making it a desirable use of time. I don't know how balanced it would be, but I'd say reducing/removing the cooldown from the 2 minute buff timer running out would be fine and would make the ability a higher priority than it is now. If they really wanted to keep the cooldown they could split it into two abilities (Place and Use) and put Place on a 2 minute cooldown and Use on a 45 second cooldown that resets Place when it finishes, that would reduce downtime on it to just the cast time (when wearing off) instead of the better part of a minute. Or maybe even take away the recall part of the ability if you talent into it on the tank tree, but I'm just stabbing in the dark right now. If I really had my way I'd say get rid of the cast time too, but I can honestly live with that if the cooldown timer wasn't so prohibitive, but I am guessing the cooldown is there to prevent the teleport part of the ability from being abused in pvp by tanks and non-tanks alike.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.22.2013 , 12:49 AM | #18
@nagatamen: Thx for being more precise about the use for phase walk. Some corrections:
First awall about the cooldown. I dont find it to be that important. For a 5 min long Boss fight you have a 80% uptime of phasewalk which means (assuming 3k ehps for both healers) about 240 more hps (which is amazing, it comes close to your self healing). For a 7 min long boss fight you either use it during some important phases (styrak), or you try to have a permanent uptime. (with a permanent uptime you have a 78,6% uptime here aswell). For short Boss fights u have a 100% uptime.
The cast time is not that important either in my opinion,as i stated before except for these 2 bosses you always have time to update the circle for the healers.
To sum it up even when this ability has a cooldown, just the additional healing numbers make it awesome.

TC: normally you have more then enough time to kill an isotope barrel and place a healing circle for your healer (atleast i have ) afterwards. I forgot to mention that that will help probably just 1 of the healers as they have to divide so that they can heal on adds and on boss Position. But tc is not rly a healing check.

Op9: Normally i try to put one healing circle in the middle shortly after the beginning (to cover blue/orange phase). Then after cooldown i try to cover whole yellow phase and the time when regulators and boss are both alive (probably the hardest healing phase in my opinion). We normally meet for aoe heals after black obfuscate in the middle so its nice to have the healing circle there and it normally doesn't disturb you for deletion protocol.
For 8 man i find the second phase to be not rly that big of a healing check compared to first phase.

tfb: For phase 1 i normally dont use it. For phase 2 i use it at the beginning of the phase and i try to have it fully available for tantrum phase, so i cover the tighest healing check points for the whole fight.

Titan 6: Yes i missed some points here (dont know i tought i wrote them down it was a long wall of text). One way to place your healing circle is to sprint to the next location of titan after you got hit by the huge grenade and place it there for your healers for the next.
The more preferable method (i forgot to mention) is to place the healing circle in a way that healers can stand in it for 2 phases of the boss (f.e. between the first and second location the boss has). When your healing circle cooldown runs out you should then normally not have the boss and be able to place it between the third and forth location. For nim you should then still be able to place one before the burn phase. When you are placing them be sure that the other tank has aggro of the boss at this moment.

Cartel Warlords: Atleast in hm it was working this way without any problems and if you do it correctly it should work in nim aswell (where its actually important to have as much healing in first phase as possible), but in nim normally ppl won't stack under horic but spread out a bit. On hm i was just dragging sunder in the bottom left corner, used force speed placed my healing circle at horic and took sunder back in my usual kiting circle without any problems, it should work for nim aswell i think.

Dread Masters: Yes i use it for the beginning for Kell Drake phase and for the last kell drake phase aswell. Normally you can get another cooldown of phase walk down between these 2 phases (so far i did not have problems with the timer, but i suppose that depends upon your dps (the time when you kill the Dragon), most of the time it ran out during the big apparition or when i was not tanking styrak).

For your last part: I think we aggree on the uses for phase walk but differ in our conclusion. So far i didn't have any problems with the casting time nor with the cooldown. If you are able to have a phase walk on at each of the critical healing checks for each boss encounter (and that is entirely possible), you're boosting your 2 healers with about 300 hps during difficult healing phases.
Thats rly a lot and it gives sin tanks the edge over other tanks (in my opinion). I find this ability realy good as it's strong, it's realy difficult to use it perfectly and it requires you to have a very good knowledge of the fights with the cooldown timer present. Probably some sin tanks have their problems with the new ability (and then blame their class....).

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.22.2013 , 08:23 AM | #19
Phase walk increases all healing so it should also increase your self heals, in that case when you are not able to place it for healer you should at least place it for yourself, and also when possible (meaning no cleaves and everyone with LoS and range) healer and tank should be in phase walk range so that healers AND the shadow can increase their heals. Also phase walk is a teleport (yes, many tanks forget that) and you can use it to help you on some mechanics or even to kite an enemy/boss.
Phase walk is really useful but it could be better. And no one is saying that shadows are bad, what they are is spiky and the problem with that is that if you get unlucky on rolls you will get pounded hard and almost die (theres even chance to be one-shoted), if that happens it doesnt matter if you are a good or bad player, if you have awesome and perfectly min/maxed gear, if you and your group succeed at mechanics and everything else, the dice roll kills you.
If you have to rely on luck to survive a fight I would say there is something wrong with the class
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THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.22.2013 , 08:44 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Yngow View Post
Phase walk increases all healing so it should also increase your self heals, in that case when you are not able to place it for healer you should at least place it for yourself, and also when possible (meaning no cleaves and everyone with LoS and range) healer and tank should be in phase walk range so that healers AND the shadow can increase their heals. Also phase walk is a teleport (yes, many tanks forget that) and you can use it to help you on some mechanics or even to kite an enemy/boss.
Phase walk is really useful but it could be better. And no one is saying that shadows are bad, what they are is spiky and the problem with that is that if you get unlucky on rolls you will get pounded hard and almost die (theres even chance to be one-shoted), if that happens it doesnt matter if you are a good or bad player, if you have awesome and perfectly min/maxed gear, if you and your group succeed at mechanics and everything else, the dice roll kills you.
If you have to rely on luck to survive a fight I would say there is something wrong with the class
The increase in self healing with assassins shelter is hardly noticeable (10-15 hps compared to 300 hps for both healers). For every fight where you can place it under yourself, you can aswell place it under the healers (as stated above).

Teleporting away is a very very rare incident (assuming force speed is on cooldown and u need to kite a most of the time enraged Boss (you cannot kite every boss)).
The only example is probably just dg enraged kel'sara (twh,op9,kephess,tfb, Titan, Operations Chief, Olok are not kitable ; Dash, Thrasher operate on a small area (and thrasher would aoe kill the raid if you teleport ) ; Cartel Warlords atleast for nim you wanna kill them together ; styrak is switching aggro very fast and is almost permastunning).

On 8 man nim content there's just terminate which can (afaik) one-shot an assassin tank, but operation chief is normally not the real fighting check and you can use defensive cooldowns for that.

In 8 man nim content i must have had a good dice as i never encountered instant kill mechanics at all, nor do any combat logs indicate such mechanics (aside from terminate which you can see comin).
16 man (as i said many times now) is another story and needs to be looked at, but 8 man nim is perfectly fine in this case.