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July Assassin Questions - Let's Start her up!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
July Assassin Questions - Let's Start her up!

insaneric's Avatar


insaneric
07.18.2013 , 06:42 AM | #31
Quote:
Belanos: There is a fear amongst the community that low DPS parses versus other classes on PTS may lead to pigeonholing us into tanking. Of course, we only have limited data to go on. Could you clear this up: Are Assassin DPS specs reaching your targets?

Austin: Yes and no. If your measure of Assassin DPS is parses on a training dummy, you WILL see lower numbers than most other DPS specs.

...

Assassin-Deception No Assassinate; no armor debuff present; no Sith Executioner
Assassin-Madness No Assassinate; no armor debuff present; no Bloodletting
...

Thereís a good deal of additional context that can be added to these parses against training dummies, but I hope this clearly demonstrates how Assassin DPS has THE MOST to gain when switching from a simulated fight to a real fight.

Furthermore, I must mention that when we do our internal playtests against real enemies with real group conditions, Assassins are in fact hitting our DPS targets. Our tests arenít perfect, however, and we donít test every fight or scenario with every spec, so we will be looking forward to seeing the results players provide for us. If things really arenít looking good for Assassins, we wonít hesitate to make the necessary adjustments.
These points would account for maybe something like 10% damage increase in a real fight, putting them just below every other class (when they don't get their missing components). So the assassin's still behind.

On top of this assassins don't really bring any utility to the fight, sure they have some situational cooldowns, but the juggernaut does better. They can't fill in for a tank for a few seconds like a jugg or pt as they have light armor. No ability to offheal. They can stealth rez, but the operative does it better. And no raidwide buffs (armor debuff or stuff like bloodlust).

So all in all there's no reason to take a dps sin on a raid over another class in any situation.
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Kayriel's Avatar


Kayriel
07.19.2013 , 01:45 PM | #32
A suggested question that pops into my head is : What are DPS assassins ( Deception especially ) supposed to be ?
By that i mean when the game started , the AC was presented as a lone wolf , doing high burst in pvp against 1 target and disappearing and doing spiky dmg in pve , but still constant and competitive with the rest of the ACs , especially in 1.7
Some of the talents in the trees feel like afterthoughts - charge mastery for Surging charge for example , 9% armor penetration , IMHO this was clearly meant to actually give us an armor debuf on our target but at the moment you don't even feel the difference.
Also , why was there a need to take our crit chance ? If the lone wolf , super high burst this still applies , why did you take that away , Depetion has great burst potential , but if you are unlucky ( like me unfortunately ) , and sometimes it happens that skills , even buffed with recklessness don't crit. then what ?!
The last question , would be , why was the radical change to both dps trees , made ? It completely changed the way assassin dps plays IMHO . Both in pve and pvp , we now have to depend on other peoples buffs and debuffs to succeed , which happened before , we relied on other people's abilities but we did not depend on them.
Deception got all its damage crammed into Maul , then followed by Discharge with 3 stacks for some reason , instead of having it spread out evenly upon our 3 main dmg skills ; and madness lost its ability to use Maul completely , which would be funny , if it would not have crippled the spec.
Edited for spelling mistakes
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Berjiz's Avatar


Berjiz
07.19.2013 , 03:57 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Kayriel View Post
A suggested question that pops into my head is : What are DPS assassins ( Deception especially ) supposed to be ?
By that i mean when the game started , the AC was presented as a lone wolf , doing high burst in pvp against 1 target and disappearing and doing spiky dmg in pve , but still constant and competitive with the rest of the ACs , especially in 1.7
Some of the talents in the trees feel like afterthoughts - charge mastery for Surging charge for example , 9% armor penetration , IMHO this was clearly meant to actually give us an armor debuf on our target but at the moment you don't even feel the difference.
Also , why was there a need to take our crit chance ? If the lone wolf , super high burst this still applies , why did you take that away , Depetion has great burst potential , but if you are unlucky ( like me unfortunately ) , and sometimes it happens that skills , even buffed with recklessness don't crit. then what ?!
The last question , would be , why was the radical change to both dps trees , made ? It completely changed the way assassin dps plays IMHO . Both in pve and pvp , we now have to depend on other peoples buffs and debuffs to succeed , which happened before , we relied on other people's abilities but we did not depend on them.
Deception got all its damage crammed into Maul , then followed by Discharge with 3 stacks for some reason , instead of having it spread out evenly upon our 3 main dmg skills ; and madness lost its ability to use Maul completely , which would be funny , if it would not have crippled the spec.
Edited for spelling mistakes
Yeah why bring an assains dps at all? Pvp deception got some burst but neither madness or deception actually brings anything for pve that isn't better to replaced with somethign else. There is only stealth res and force shroud which is nice but no the reason to bring a class. And force shroud isn't super useful either anymore. The taunt is meh for offtank since it costs 100 force to switch stance and we have light armour.

Except for them there is no utility that an assasin dps brings and since their dps usually is sup-par with no aoe there is even less reason to bring one. All other dps classes bring something that is more useful, has morea aoe and does more dmg(possibly with the exception of powertech and operative dps).

TLCuddy's Avatar


TLCuddy
07.19.2013 , 06:50 PM | #34
Would it be terrible or unbalance us if we got Force pull across the board instead of speccing into it. Really I feel like the DPS assassin should get quicker CDs on out abilities, if we're not going to be the big heavy smashing hits, then we should be able be able to get our medium hitters off faster than any other AC to allow us to get more actual DPS. Unless the experts, I am sincere I haven't put a lot of time in to studying and this is my first MMO, believe that would OP our AC!

Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
07.21.2013 , 11:48 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by TLCuddy View Post
Would it be terrible or unbalance us if we got Force pull across the board instead of speccing into it.
Though not necessary now, perhaps in another x-pac this may be a possibility. As it stands, it's not needed at the moment and we have other worries that plague us.
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Griad's Avatar


Griad
07.26.2013 , 07:10 AM | #36
I still think that a minor bleed or lingering discharge effect in the deception tree would do wonders for the sustained dps or up the damage from 3-6% damage during the execute phase to 4-8%, so we truely can reel in the dps we are behind if not more.

For madness maybe increase damage on assassinate by 3-6% in the bloodletting skill box
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Griad's Avatar


Griad
07.26.2013 , 07:15 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Berjiz View Post
Yeah why bring an assains dps at all? Pvp deception got some burst but neither madness or deception actually brings anything for pve that isn't better to replaced with somethign else. There is only stealth res and force shroud which is nice but no the reason to bring a class. And force shroud isn't super useful either anymore. The taunt is meh for offtank since it costs 100 force to switch stance and we have light armour.

Except for them there is no utility that an assasin dps brings and since their dps usually is sup-par with no aoe there is even less reason to bring one. All other dps classes bring something that is more useful, has morea aoe and does more dmg(possibly with the exception of powertech and operative dps).
Operative dps is quite good now i love dps on my lethality specced operative they are in alot better place than they used to be and can if played right deal some truely nice damage.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.26.2013 , 12:24 PM | #38
Quote:
Thereís a good deal of additional context that can be added to these parses against training dummies, but I hope this clearly demonstrates how Assassin DPS has THE MOST to gain when switching from a simulated fight to a real fight.
This is one of the things that's always perturbed me about the devs' distaste for dummy parses. It's actually not that hard to directly account for any of those missing factors in dummy parses.

First off, all K/E damage gets bumped up by 7.7% to account for the armor debuff (going from 35% DR to 30% DR), but, then again, this is nowhere *near* unique for Assassins since a lot of the other top DPS gets just as much (if not more) benefit from it thanks to higher K/E damage ratios.

For the execute range talents, Deception gets a flat 1.8% increase to account for Sith Executioner (6% for 30% of NPC's lifespan), and Madness gets a 4.5% increase to Death Field and DoTs for Bloodletting (15% * 30%).

Assassinate is a bit more complex but still pretty easy to factor once you've done some basic math. Since it just replaces roughly one out of every 2 Double Strikes or Voltaic Slashs while it's available, you simply increase the damage dealt by those abilities by 15% (50% of uses * 30% of the time) of the difference between the relevant abilities. With passive talents factored in, Assassinate deals ~82% more damage than Double Strike or Voltaic Slash (Claws of Decay increases the average damage of Double Strike to be equal with the increased baseline damage of Voltaic Slash), which means that, to account for Assassinate, you simply increase the damage on Double Strike and Voltaic Slash by 13.2% (.15 * .82).

Now, we'll take the #1 Shadow Dummy parse (the #1 Assassin dummy parse manages slightly more DPS but uses Force Lightning for fully one-third of its total damage, which means it will be getting less from the multipliers and screw up the end numbers, even with its 60 higher baseline DPS) and apply said math to it to factor out the stuff that Peckenpaugh was saying would boost us up to amazing. It's a Balance (Madness) parse so we apply that math to it:

Assuming that there is no armor debuff present (which we can't know but the best parses generally do anyways but, since we can't be for sure, we're going to assume it's not there for an absolute best case), 75.87% of total damage is increased by 7.7%, for an end multiplier increase of 5.84% to total DPS.

DoTs and FiB (Death Field) comprise 49.27% of total damage (10.05 + 10.6 + 13.52 + 15.1). We pump that up by 4.5% for a 2.217% increase to total DPS.

Double Strike is 25.38% of total damage. For Spinning Strike (Assassinate), we increase that by 13.2% for a 3.35% increase to total DPS.

To put it all together, this dummy parse would deal 111.7% ((1+.02217+.0335)*5.84) of its listed damage "in practice". An 11.7% increase in total DPS would equate to 3066 DPS from 2745, which pushes credulity since a *lot* of that damage is predicated on the unknown of whether the armor debuff was present. I'm relatively confident that the listed parse was packing the armor debuff (since pretty much *every* top parse does), which would mean that it would really be dealing 105.567% of listed DPS (1 + 0.02217 + 0.0335), for an end value of ~2900.

So, we get 2900 with everything we're short of factored in. Compare that to the 2900/2925 that Guard/Juggs manage, the ~3150 for Sent/Maras, 2900 for Sage/Sorcs (one Sorc managed 3100, which was 200 higher than anything else, which seemed suspect), 3100 for Mercs/Comms, 2900-3000 for PT/VGs, 3300-3500 for GS/Snipers, and 2900-3200 for Scoundrels/Ops, none of which are receiving the given inflationary benefits I've provided to Shadows. Even if you go conservatively at a 2-3% increase to the DPS of others (i.e. Shad/Sins get twice as much benefit from Execute range), Shad/Sins are still 75-100 DPS behind the next closest.

Honestly, the whole argument of "Shad/Sins get more which pulls them up to equal" is pretty much entirely facetious. Yes, they get more, but the fact that those benefits are so comparatively *small* means that they don't actually get as much as promised.
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thejollygreenone's Avatar


thejollygreenone
07.26.2013 , 04:11 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
So, we get 2900 with everything we're short of factored in.
All that math aside, from my experience it doesnt seem to be, really, as much of a bonus as the math comes out to be. Show me, for example, a parse of thrasher hm where a sin/shadow does 2900 dps. We both know it's very possible to keep up dps through firebugs if those on the top of torparse even got one. But i digress, your point and my own are very similar, i'd just like to say i think that the bonus (through whatever circumstances) may be less than the math has shown to be, and that our dps may need a little more work than it's being made to look like.

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Kitru
07.26.2013 , 05:19 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by thejollygreenone View Post
All that math aside, from my experience it doesnt seem to be, really, as much of a bonus as the math comes out to be.
My point was that it *is* possible to suss out the practical benefits of phase based DPS increases based off of Dummy parses. The devs claiming that Dummy parses *aren't* legitimate tools for raw DPS-capability comparison is simply wrong. It just take 30 minutes of work to fix it.

The problem that *I* have, that I was trying to elaborate on with all of the math, was that the contributions of the factors that the developers believed would bolster Shadows up to the proper level are inflated in either the developers' minds or in their math, both of which indicate needed corrections.

As to the discrepancy between dummy DPS and practical DPS that's, honestly, to be expected. Everyone experiences a DPS drop in practical circumstances. Dummy parsers are really just supposed to demonstrate the raw DPS capability of a class in non-theoretical circumstances. Basically, they're a step above raw theorycrafting (which is what the devs seem to use almost exclusively for their balance calcs) and just below actual fight parses on the scale of practical functionality v. theoretical functionality because they add in the human factor but remove fight complications.

They're, honestly, the best analytics for real DPS balance. Raw theory ignores too many practical variables, like the level of absolute precision required for some specs to achieve functional DPS (like seen in Madness/Balance; DoT reapplication for it is *crazy* unforgiving and one of the biggest reasons why it has *never* gotten as close to its theoretical DPS as every other spec manages), and actual fight parses include too many variables that have to be removed to arrive as the needed ST equivalence.

Any suggested tweaks really should take the relevant dummy parses and attack/damage breakdowns into consideration. The breakdown math on the "nonstandard" benefits just provides tools for properly adjudicating fixes that will actually impact the class properly.
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