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Stolen Idea- Preemptive questioning

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Stolen Idea- Preemptive questioning

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
07.26.2013 , 12:43 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
1. Lethality already has exactly this, I'd rather see something unique for Concealment (not to mention that it wouldn't be enough either way). Other than the obvious 30% AoE damage reduction, I'd like to see a substantial damage reduction buff (something like -40% damage taken) on Sneak or Shield Probe, and a Defense buff added to Calculated Frenzy (2% or 3% per point).
2. Agreed, not much more to say.
3. Like point one, I'd rather see something new than a mechanic that already exists. Perhaps a way to reset the cooldown on Shield Probe? "Using Evasion will instantly finish the cooldown of Shield Probe" or similar (could be interesting if the 1s Evasion attached to Exfiltrate worked as well).
4. Agreed, I'm thinking something along the lines of "Shiv has a 40% chance to make your Hidden Strike free and usable out of stealth".
5. Agreed, I'd start by either reducing the energy cost of Lacerate back to its original value, or reducing the internal cooldown of Culling.
hidden strike off stealth, is OP, its worst than smash jugs, would be worst than Ssins lol... maybe sneak could trigger hidden strike off stealth without procing jarring strike.... reality is, any small changes to everything you are saying dps wise would unbalance PvE too much, they might just need to make something that make OPs invincible 1v1 like Ssins, but we dont have CDs like recklessness on ssins, so i see almost no room for anything there :S
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn

Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
07.27.2013 , 04:16 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Carlenux View Post
hidden strike off stealth, is OP, its worst than smash jugs, would be worst than Ssins lol... maybe sneak could trigger hidden strike off stealth without procing jarring strike....
I don't think it would be OP, honestly. Smash still hits harder on a 9s cooldown compared to 12s for Hidden Strike, and is AoE. Thundering Blast deals similar damage and has a 9s cooldown as well, but is ranged. Honestly, I think this would be pretty balanced in ranked PvP.

Quote: Originally Posted by Carlenux View Post
reality is, any small changes to everything you are saying dps wise would unbalance PvE too much, they might just need to make something that make OPs invincible 1v1 like Ssins, but we dont have CDs like recklessness on ssins, so i see almost no room for anything there :S
I do run HM and NiM Ops on my Operative as well, so I am taking PvE implications into consideration. Truth is, Concealment is the lower DPS spec, so it wouldn't hurt to buff them a bit. Suddenly gaining access to an auto-crit Hidden Strike would be a massive buff for sure, but if Concealment would then turn out to overperform in PvE (and I still kind of doubt they'd be better than Marauders), it wouldn't be too hard to adjust the damage of for example Acid Blade or Corrosive Dart (increase its damage in Lethality to make up for it) to compensate.
Rheiya | Fyrellis | Kayleen | Adelynn | Bao-der | Hailey | Lyell | Leonyra
Freiya | Zeyus | Ivaadi | Ellyxia | Shyala | Sugarberry | Ylvie| Syeeda

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
07.27.2013 , 08:07 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
I don't think it would be OP, honestly. Smash still hits harder on a 9s cooldown compared to 12s for Hidden Strike, and is AoE. Thundering Blast deals similar damage and has a 9s cooldown as well, but is ranged. Honestly, I think this would be pretty balanced in ranked PvP.


I do run HM and NiM Ops on my Operative as well, so I am taking PvE implications into consideration. Truth is, Concealment is the lower DPS spec, so it wouldn't hurt to buff them a bit. Suddenly gaining access to an auto-crit Hidden Strike would be a massive buff for sure, but if Concealment would then turn out to overperform in PvE (and I still kind of doubt they'd be better than Marauders), it wouldn't be too hard to adjust the damage of for example Acid Blade or Corrosive Dart (increase its damage in Lethality to make up for it) to compensate.
i think we are bringing two interesting points of view here which is nice, but i still have to dissagree with you... smash vs KB, hes done, smash VS roll + sprint out... hes done, just have to know when/how to move, not saying i am a master pvp, but if u are a healer, really easy to cleanse at least 2/3 stacks from his force crush too, way too many ways to avoid it.... TB is a long cast, interrupt and hes done, yet its a hard hitting spell, thing is u can cast with interruptions + interrupts + LoS... you are talking a bout a 7K Crit hitter, instant, grants TA, grants Acid blade (5k dot) + 2sec stun KB on target, completely unavoidable, only thing that can avoid is shroud (tech).... idk maybe increase CD 3-6 seconds and allow use out of stealth when something happens, or with sneak, like i said, MAYBE its something useful.

on the other comment, dummy part REAL concealment vs REAL lethality is like 50-80 behind, now Acid blade lethality is like 160 behind... this of course comparing my parses... my leth is doing 3250 with acid blade... without its around 3150-3180... while concealment its 3050-3100 over 5 minutes parse... now comparing to ALL other classes, both specs are ahead, snipers beating us because of armor reduction... marauders have like 2 person beating conceal numbers, rest are around the same, considering they do BT once or twice a fight which grant them probably initial burst of 100-200 + dps in their numbers, u can say yeah thats a mara ability to use, reality is my acid blade is MY acid blade, their BT is everyones BT, in raid, ill get it too, so its unfair to compare . you make those changes to HS and ill be parsing 3500 easily lol
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn

jack__'s Avatar


jack__
07.27.2013 , 08:55 PM | #24
Firstly, most of this comes from PvP experience with concealment. In PvE I am a healer but I occasionally dabble in DPS and that is only for SM ops.

I find that concealment has a couple of problems and I shall flesh them out below:
Reliance on Hidden Strike ie. stealth
Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits
Energy managment is very luck based
Need to stand behind a target
Revitalisers

Reliance on Hidden Strike
Any concealment PvP'er knows that bane of getting kicked out of stealth by a random AoE ability. Not being able to get of a hidden strike, which gives you a TA, a 2 seconds stun and a good amount of damage, is a huge dent to our damage potential, so if we lose that, the fight is usually lost. I propose that middle tree should get a buff to shield probe, that if it absorbs damage when you are in cloak, that damage will not break you out. In addition, shield probe should get it's strength buffed when in stealth, so a random Smash doesn't break us out. This means that an enemy Force in Balance won't accidentally hit you and force you out of stealth. In addition, it would be good for all those pesky bosses in PvE that open with an AoE ability.

Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits
A concealment operative who gets a couple of crits in their opener can be devastating, however the chances of that happening are once in a blue moon. Acid blade should give a buff to the crit chance of Hidden Strike and Backstab if it is applied. It should be a large buff to Hidden Strike (eg. 60%) so it is an almost guaranteed crit and a smaller Backstab (eg.30%). To compensate for this, the damage delt by the Acid Blade DoT would have to be reduced, but it would give the class a bit more burst.

Energy managment is very luck based
In concealment, a good chunk of you energy management comes from proccing a collateral strike off Laceration. If you get lucky with procs, then the energy management will be good. If you are unlucky, then don't expect to be doing much damage any time soon. Maybe it is just my me doing a bad rotation or something, but I only get good energy management when the stars align. As a though, maybe Calculated Frenzy could be changed so it gives an energy regen boost, along with alacrity. In addition to that, the energy return on collateral strike should be changed to be 5%/10% of max energy instead of just 5/10, to give some value to the 4 piece enforcers set bonus (5 extra energy).

Need to stand behind a target
This is mainly a QoL complaint, however the need to stand behind someone to activate a skill is one of the most ridiculous I have seen. If we have aggro on a PvE mob, why shouldn't we be able to execute what is arguably one of the most important moves in our rotation. Also for PvP, if you activate Backstab and then the person turns to face you, the move will be cancelled. The animation will play, but no damage goes out and it is not on cooldown. I see no real reason for this to be in the game, as it adds absolutly nothing to gameplay.

Revitalisers
Great skill tree move pre 2.0, absolutely useless now. A tiny heal once every 2 minutes is laughable. Take it out and add in the 30% AoE damage reduction that people have been asking for.

IMO, the other 2 skill trees are in excellent shape right now and need no changes.

Well maybe the energy cost on Kolto Probe needs to be nerfed a bit, but you didn't hear it from me
"Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
07.28.2013 , 01:43 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by jack__ View Post
Firstly, most of this comes from PvP experience with concealment. In PvE I am a healer but I occasionally dabble in DPS and that is only for SM ops.

I find that concealment has a couple of problems and I shall flesh them out below:
Reliance on Hidden Strike ie. stealth
Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits
Energy managment is very luck based
Need to stand behind a target
Revitalisers

Reliance on Hidden Strike
Any concealment PvP'er knows that bane of getting kicked out of stealth by a random AoE ability. Not being able to get of a hidden strike, which gives you a TA, a 2 seconds stun and a good amount of damage, is a huge dent to our damage potential, so if we lose that, the fight is usually lost. I propose that middle tree should get a buff to shield probe, that if it absorbs damage when you are in cloak, that damage will not break you out. In addition, shield probe should get it's strength buffed when in stealth, so a random Smash doesn't break us out. This means that an enemy Force in Balance won't accidentally hit you and force you out of stealth. In addition, it would be good for all those pesky bosses in PvE that open with an AoE ability.

Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits
A concealment operative who gets a couple of crits in their opener can be devastating, however the chances of that happening are once in a blue moon. Acid blade should give a buff to the crit chance of Hidden Strike and Backstab if it is applied. It should be a large buff to Hidden Strike (eg. 60%) so it is an almost guaranteed crit and a smaller Backstab (eg.30%). To compensate for this, the damage delt by the Acid Blade DoT would have to be reduced, but it would give the class a bit more burst.

Energy managment is very luck based
In concealment, a good chunk of you energy management comes from proccing a collateral strike off Laceration. If you get lucky with procs, then the energy management will be good. If you are unlucky, then don't expect to be doing much damage any time soon. Maybe it is just my me doing a bad rotation or something, but I only get good energy management when the stars align. As a though, maybe Calculated Frenzy could be changed so it gives an energy regen boost, along with alacrity. In addition to that, the energy return on collateral strike should be changed to be 5%/10% of max energy instead of just 5/10, to give some value to the 4 piece enforcers set bonus (5 extra energy).

Need to stand behind a target
This is mainly a QoL complaint, however the need to stand behind someone to activate a skill is one of the most ridiculous I have seen. If we have aggro on a PvE mob, why shouldn't we be able to execute what is arguably one of the most important moves in our rotation. Also for PvP, if you activate Backstab and then the person turns to face you, the move will be cancelled. The animation will play, but no damage goes out and it is not on cooldown. I see no real reason for this to be in the game, as it adds absolutly nothing to gameplay.

Revitalisers
Great skill tree move pre 2.0, absolutely useless now. A tiny heal once every 2 minutes is laughable. Take it out and add in the 30% AoE damage reduction that people have been asking for.

IMO, the other 2 skill trees are in excellent shape right now and need no changes.

Well maybe the energy cost on Kolto Probe needs to be nerfed a bit, but you didn't hear it from me
agree on everything, everything is true in both sides, pvp and pve, thing is whats the fix? everything people says in my opinion would make it overpower in pvp and destroy dps in pve, so would need to get to a "real" fix, more than "i want to crit + hdiden strike everytime i want" >.<
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn

JohnElias's Avatar


JohnElias
07.28.2013 , 09:25 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Carlenux View Post
agree on everything, everything is true in both sides, pvp and pve, thing is whats the fix? everything people says in my opinion would make it overpower in pvp and destroy dps in pve, so would need to get to a "real" fix, more than "i want to crit + hdiden strike everytime i want" >.<
I don't even know how to reply to you. Your attempts to "fix" the class are minimal and all you say is "this and that" will make Concealment OP. How? Contribute please because I'm at a loss for words. I don't see anything wrong with using Hidden Strike out of stealth, considering our mediocre burst and sustained DPS. Yeah, in PvE when I do dailies I one shot mobs 4-5K shivs/Lacerates w/ a POWER stim activated, but in PvP, don't get me started on the pathetic numbers I see sometimes.

I have played since launch, it's great to crit 7.7K (All power/surge) on gearless people, but any other class will hit harder. At least the proposition of using Hidden Strike out of stealth guarantees some burst. As it is now we rely on our CC (Which every class has), on backstab (12s CD), and Explosive Probe (30s CD), our 2 biggest out of stealth hitters are on ridiculous CDs.

I'm sorry but I am almost convinced you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Operatives. If you keep posting, please be constructive and at least have experienced a few months of Concealment PvP and PvE, because your forum sig has many toons on it, whereas mine has one. lol
<Immortal> Xæhanort - da tank who tanks da healers in da poosy

Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
07.28.2013 , 09:46 AM | #27
Like I said, there are a ton of things you can adjust to avoid overpowering Concealment in PvE. Shiv, Lacerate, Corrosive Dart, Acid Blade... toning down one or a few of these abilities for Concealment ops would totally be worth it if we could gain Hidden Strike that way.

Alternatively, give the proc that lets you use HS out of stealth a low proc chance or long internal cooldown, but let it be used on targets below 30% with or without the proc.
Rheiya | Fyrellis | Kayleen | Adelynn | Bao-der | Hailey | Lyell | Leonyra
Freiya | Zeyus | Ivaadi | Ellyxia | Shyala | Sugarberry | Ylvie| Syeeda

JohnElias's Avatar


JohnElias
07.28.2013 , 09:56 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
Like I said, there are a ton of things you can adjust to avoid overpowering Concealment in PvE. Shiv, Lacerate, Corrosive Dart, Acid Blade... toning down one or a few of these abilities for Concealment ops would totally be worth it if we could gain Hidden Strike that way.

Alternatively, give the proc that lets you use HS out of stealth a low proc chance or long internal cooldown, but let it be used on targets below 30% with or without the proc.
^ Absolutely well put! I don't know how comfy I'd be with toning down our other skills if I am to rely solely on a lucky proc, but overall it's a good idea. And the burst can be pretty good, but we must crit. Even if BW did make HS auto crit, it would still be one of the lower hitting abilities. When I get Heat seeked for 9K, Smashed for 9, Dispatched for 7, Mauled for 9, it makes our 6.5-7K critter look bad. Maybe I am over exaggerating the numbers, but those are what I've seen hit me. I don't see why some are against it. Maybe I am too pro-Op buff that it clouds the truth behind the class, and my denial may be the result of why I think it wouldn't be overpowered. Someone tell me I'm still sane. lol
<Immortal> Xæhanort - da tank who tanks da healers in da poosy

Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
07.28.2013 , 10:23 AM | #29
You'd be surprised how little it would take to bring Concealment PvE DPS back in line, should an auto-crit, non-stealth Hidden Strike be introduced. I'm pretty sure it'd be worth it in PvP, and more fun for the PvEers as well with a more varied rotation.
Rheiya | Fyrellis | Kayleen | Adelynn | Bao-der | Hailey | Lyell | Leonyra
Freiya | Zeyus | Ivaadi | Ellyxia | Shyala | Sugarberry | Ylvie| Syeeda

JohnElias's Avatar


JohnElias
07.28.2013 , 10:28 AM | #30
Deleted
<Immortal> Xæhanort - da tank who tanks da healers in da poosy