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We Need Clarification

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

NilethStar's Avatar


NilethStar
07.05.2013 , 07:21 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Magnusheart View Post
What are the details on Treek? Weapon? Stats etc? I am going to assume Cunning and Bowcaster.
Aim and Bowcaster

Reno_Tarshil's Avatar


Reno_Tarshil
07.05.2013 , 07:22 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I do not know for certain, but I seem to recall hearing that they were changing it because it WAS selling story content, no matter how insignificant, on the CM. I'm sure if I'm wrong, someone will be here to correct me.
No the only thing they changed was taking away the credit boom in the cubes because it could be exploited. They are gonna release a second set of cubes in the next pack and that's it for cubes.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
07.05.2013 , 07:27 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
You are ignoring the fact that one avenue of purchase has an ADDITIONAL requirement that the second avenue of purchase does not.
I'm not ignoring it at all. Wealth comes in this game by playing, just like Legacy levels do. It would be rare for a legacy 40 character to be unable to pay the credit fees for unlocks. We both know this to be true. Sure.. there are always some players that cannot manage in game wealth accumulation and are constantly in a state of poverty, but these players are simply failing at basic MMO play if that is the case....ESPECIALLY so in this MMO.

That said.. I am on record in nearly every thread this week pointing out that Legacy is an artifact system from an earlier era of the game (subscription only model) and that it was a mistake to ever put credit fees on Legacy unlocks EVER, and the system should be updated accordingly and remove all credit fees. If you have paid any attention to my posts this week.. you would of course already know this.
Judgments are often inaccurate because the brain relies on cognitive biases over hard evidence. Cognitive bias is the tendency to make irrational judgments in consistent patterns. Researchers have found that cognitive bias wreaks havoc by forcing people to make poor, irrational judgments.

Korrlen's Avatar


Korrlen
07.05.2013 , 07:33 PM | #104
There is a lot of posts in this thread which dance around a larger topic, which I think is pretty important to discuss.

When anyone plays an MMO, there is an unspoken social contract in place. This contract is laid out as such: The actions you do, characters you level, and items you obtain all have an intrinsic value. It is the MMO operator's responsibility to foster all of the the player's value they have accumulated. If the MMO operator undermines the players intrinsic value, it comprises the player's confidence in the game.

A simple example here - Someone who has leveled to Legacy Level 40+ likely has gone through 4 or more story lines to level 50. The player feels as if they put in a significant amount of real-life time, and it really is an accomplishment of sorts. This intrinsic value can be greatly undermined in several ways: Not having anything the player feels is 'worth it' in the later legacy levels, having the ability to boost legacy level artificially, having the same or similar rewards obtainable immediately by anyone (as is the case with Treek).

It's important to remember that when someone speaks out that their invested value has been arbitrarily diminished, they are not complaining. They are not 'elitist'. Most importantly, they care about the integrity of the game itself.

The Cartel Market/Coins are the easy target, however it's entirely the management of Cartel Coins, and not the coins themselves which is to blame here. It's entirely possible to have a form of real currency in a game, while not undermining the invested value of long time players -- though admittedly much tricker to balance.

Some suggestions I could offer:
  • Keep Cartel Coin offerings on even footing. Coins should be an alternate way to purchase something given that all other variables are equal (same level or legacy level requirements, etc).
  • Balance items along the gradient of players invested value. This means when adding an item immediately available to anyone via Cartel Coins, add something different higher up the 'invested value' gradient (only obtainable at a specific level, legacy level, raid / flashpoint completion, or any other metric).
  • Whenever anything is added to the game, ask yourselves objectively: "Will this add to all player's invested value, or diminish it?".

One thing to keep in mind about the last point also: Just because someone doesn't meet the level requirement for a particular unlock, doesn't diminish it's value - indeed it makes it skyrocket once they achieve it! At this point, anything Bioware does to undermine the value of that specific unlock will severely hurt that player's confidence in the game.

Kian - The Harbinger

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
07.05.2013 , 07:35 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
But legacy will unlock the option to spend a million of those credits you earned, when you can just spend a few CC's for the same item. That's something, right?
One thing I always do is assess the economics of everything in game in the context of CC or credits. When presented with a choice to acquire with CC OR Credits.....there are things that it is silly to spend cartel coins on, and things it is silly to spend credits on. Different people will have different personal assessments for their needs, but it would be foolish to always go the CC route or always go the Credits route in this game.

For example: It's silly to purchase armor, weapons, or speeders from the CM for CCs, when they are readily available for credits from other players on the GTN.

For example: it would be silly to purchase the Ship GTN for 5M credits via legacy unlock when you can get the ship GTN for 900 CC.

For example: it would be silly to pay 425 CC to unlock improved speeder 1, when you can unlock it for 40K credits via legacy unlock.

The list goes on and on.

Smart players analyze and play smartly, and this is as important in terms of item economics as it is for being properly geared and prepared for an OP.
Judgments are often inaccurate because the brain relies on cognitive biases over hard evidence. Cognitive bias is the tendency to make irrational judgments in consistent patterns. Researchers have found that cognitive bias wreaks havoc by forcing people to make poor, irrational judgments.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
07.05.2013 , 07:39 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
I'm not ignoring it at all. Wealth comes in this game by playing, just like Legacy levels do. It would be rare for a legacy 40 character to be unable to pay the credit fees for unlocks. We both know this to be true. Sure.. there are always some players that cannot manage in game wealth accumulation and are constantly in a state of poverty, but these players are simply failing at basic MMO play if that is the case....ESPECIALLY so in this MMO.

That said.. I am on record in nearly every thread this week pointing out that Legacy is an artifact system from an earlier era of the game (subscription only model) and that it was a mistake to ever put credit fees on Legacy unlocks EVER, and the system should be updated accordingly and remove all credit fees. If you have paid any attention to my posts this week.. you would of course already know this.
First, you ignored it again, or at least tried to turn it around.

The point was not that if you wanted to purchase the companion with legacy 40, you had to spend a million credits. The point was that one method of payment (CC's) had NO additional requirement, but the other method of payment (credits) required you to have legacy 40 before you could even think about spending those million credits on the companion. Not very fair, is it?

Second, how about answering the ENTIRE post and all the questions/points raised? I'll save you the trouble of going back to look for the post. Here it is again:

Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
You are ignoring the fact that one avenue of purchase has an ADDITIONAL requirement that the second avenue of purchase does not. Therefore those that use the second method of purchase (the one without the additional requirement) are "getting ahead" as they do not have to meet that additional requirement, and therefore may well get that new shiny before the person who chooses to PLAY the game rather than BUY the game.

How about if legacy 40 got you the pet for FREE, and those without legacy 40 could either pay a million credits or CC's to purchase the companion? That would give those with the higher legacy a REAL benefit, not simply the option to spend a million credits. It would also allow a true choice in method of payment for those who do not have legacy 40 to purchase the pet and not a heavily skewed choice intended to push them toward the CM, and not make it seem like such a cash grab.

I doubt that would happen for that very reason. A true choice would not provide as much incentive to use the CM and therefore would probably not bring as much revenue and would defeat the purpose of the cash grab.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
07.05.2013 , 07:40 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Korrlen View Post
When anyone plays an MMO, there is an unspoken social contract in place. This contract is laid out as such: The actions you do, characters you level, and items you obtain all have an intrinsic value. It is the MMO operator's responsibility to foster all of the the player's value they have accumulated. If if the MMO operator undermines the players intrinsic value, it comprises the player's confidence in the game.
True.. however... MMOs evolve and change over time. As such.. they ALWAYS evolve in a manner such that what was valuable at one point in time to the player base.. becomes less valuable, or completely useless later on.

This does not happen with everything in every case inside and MMO, but for the most part..it does happen on a persistent, progressive, and notable level.

An expansion pack to an MMO being a classic case of this. Or a major patch. Or a change in the MMOs business model.

Players cannot stratify their view of MMO content and expect it not to change, evolve, and in many cases become obsolete without pacing with the evolution of the game. Ask any player that leaves and MMO and comes back a year or two later and finds everything their characters own to be effectively useless. A returning player sees it immediately and in a step function. Ongoing players see it more gradually in most cases, but the net change is the same.
Judgments are often inaccurate because the brain relies on cognitive biases over hard evidence. Cognitive bias is the tendency to make irrational judgments in consistent patterns. Researchers have found that cognitive bias wreaks havoc by forcing people to make poor, irrational judgments.

Korrlen's Avatar


Korrlen
07.05.2013 , 07:42 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
An expansion pack to an MMO being a classic case of this. Or a major patch. Or a change in the MMOs business model.
Indeed, perhaps it's time to get rid of this tired model then. In fact I've been waiting for a game to come along and do just this.

World of Warcraft was a big offender of this, once an expansion comes out, all previous content is essentially invalidated. What a shame, and waste of resources.

Mark-JPS's Avatar


Mark-JPS
07.05.2013 , 07:42 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Korrlen View Post
There is a lot of posts in this thread which dance around a larger topic, which I think is pretty important to discuss.

When anyone plays an MMO, there is an unspoken social contract in place. This contract is laid out as such: The actions you do, characters you level, and items you obtain all have an intrinsic value. It is the MMO operator's responsibility to foster all of the the player's value they have accumulated. If if the MMO operator undermines the players intrinsic value, it comprises the player's confidence in the game.

A simple example here - Someone who has leveled to Legacy Level 40+ likely has gone through 4 or more story lines to level 50. The player feels as if they put in a significant amount of real-life time, and it really is an accomplishment of sorts. This intrinsic value can be greatly undermined in several ways: Not having anything the player feels is 'worth it' in the later legacy levels, having the ability to boost legacy level artificially, having the same or similar rewards obtainable immediately by anyone (as is the case with Treek).

It's important to remember that when someone speaks out that their invested value has been arbitrarily diminished, they are not complaining. They are not 'elitist'. Most importantly, they care about the integrity of the game itself.

The Cartel Market/Coins are the easy target, however it's entirely the management of Cartel Coins, and not the coins themselves which is to blame here. It's entirely possible to have a form of real currency in a game, while not undermining the invested value of long time players -- though admittedly much tricker to balance.

Some suggestions I could offer:
  • Keep Cartel Coin offerings on even footing. Coins should be an alternate way to purchase something given that all other variables are equal (same level or legacy level requirements, etc).
  • Balance items along the gradient of players invested value. This means when adding an item immediately available to anyone via Cartel Coins, add something different higher up the 'invested value' gradient (only obtainable at a specific level, legacy level, raid / flashpoint completion, or any other metric).
  • Whenever anything is added to the game, as yourselves objectively: "Will this add to all player's invested value, or diminish it?".

One thing to keep in mind about the last point also: Just because someone doesn't meet the level requirement for a particular unlock, doesn't diminish it's value - indeed it makes it skyrocket once they achieve it! At this point, anything Bioware does to undermine the value of that specific unlock will severely hurt that player's confidence in the game.

Kien - The Harbinger
You pretty much hit the right topics. I guess veterans, including myself, are indeed elitist and want the integrity of the game to remain the same. But seeing how Bioware needs money, it's bound to change one way or another.

Bioware needs to really balance it, even to elitist themselves. What BIoware is doing clearly shows they don't care about the veteran gamers at all.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
07.05.2013 , 07:46 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
The point was not that if you wanted to purchase the companion with legacy 40, you had to spend a million credits. The point was that one method of payment (CC's) had NO additional requirement, but the other method of payment (credits) required you to have legacy 40 before you could even think about spending those million credits on the companion. Not very fair, is it?
1) I will respond to points I want to respond to.. stop lecturing me on how to respond to other posts with my comments.

2) As I have said, and continue to say... I do not agree with the credit soak on Legacy unlocks and believe they should be eliminated. They were bad design when they went live with them (and way before CCs), and they are bad design now. It was early in the games life and I understand that they were still adjusting a lot of economics throttles on the game in terms of credit issue vs sink. At that time, it probably looked harmless to them to put credit soaks on Legacy unlocks. However, I remain of the opinion that it was a mistake, it was bad design, and it should be fixed. If those credits soaks were never put in.... then it's legacy level vs CCs to unlock. Personally, I want to see them removethe credit soaks (even though it means that they will increase credit soaks somewhere else). I can afford to pay them.. but they are illogical, and were a design mistake to begin with.
Judgments are often inaccurate because the brain relies on cognitive biases over hard evidence. Cognitive bias is the tendency to make irrational judgments in consistent patterns. Researchers have found that cognitive bias wreaks havoc by forcing people to make poor, irrational judgments.