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Absorb with Minimal Defense Sin Tank

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Absorb with Minimal Defense Sin Tank

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 02:48 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Both of those are WH links.
Yes normally its more dmg, try this one (or just scroll down )

http://www.torparse.com/a/327990/43/0/Damage+Taken

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.08.2013 , 03:10 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I did look at the twh and at the dg fight combat logs. At twh it's about 1,8k dmg, at dg it's about 2k dmg, so healers have to actually heal the tanks more at dg NiM fight then on twh. Thers a simple reason for that:. DG fight is more difficult then the twh fight so you need to be optimised for the dg fight and not for a fight that is way easier.
Honestly, you're doing something wrong. I don't have a recent writhing horror parse, since I don't bother uploading it anymore. However, on DG, I take 1750 DPS. My cotank takes about 1850, due to the way that we script the tank swaps. That's pre self-heal, which is about 330 for each of us. Thus, we require roughly 1500 external HPS (allowing overheal fudge margin).

If you want to optimize for the DG fight, then you need to do two things. First, maximize your main stat. Higher DPS output makes the enrage easier and pushes the first phase faster (which makes it much easier to heal). Second, optimize for better cooldown timings in the third phase for when Voltaic Slash hits for 16k followed by a 13k Discharge. (note: VS is M/R). Those are the two things which cause issues for tanks in that fight. Mean mitigation is much less of an issue, and you're not going to make the fight appreciably easier by itemizing specifically for it.

As Kitru said, itemize for Operator IX, which is mostly M/R damage.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
07.08.2013 , 03:21 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Both of those are WH links.
Well spotted. Fixed the post.
Gorthog - Amelthea
<Intrepid>

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 03:31 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Honestly, you're doing something wrong. I don't have a recent writhing horror parse, since I don't bother uploading it anymore. However, on DG, I take 1750 DPS. My cotank takes about 1850, due to the way that we script the tank swaps. That's pre self-heal, which is about 330 for each of us. Thus, we require roughly 1500 external HPS (allowing overheal fudge margin).

If you want to optimize for the DG fight, then you need to do two things. First, maximize your main stat. Higher DPS output makes the enrage easier and pushes the first phase faster (which makes it much easier to heal). Second, optimize for better cooldown timings in the third phase for when Voltaic Slash hits for 16k followed by a 13k Discharge. (note: VS is M/R). Those are the two things which cause issues for tanks in that fight. Mean mitigation is much less of an issue, and you're not going to make the fight appreciably easier by itemizing specifically for it.

As Kitru said, itemize for Operator IX, which is mostly M/R damage.
I find it not funny that your are not telling anything about force scream which is the MAIN damage on third phase a tank gets when kel'sara attacks him(and its f/t e/k). The average damage a tank gets from a force scream is more then double as high as from a voltaic slash hit and you get more force scream hits on third phase then voltaic slash hits as kel'saras Standard Rotation at this point is dc/fc/vs/fc/dc. Don't try to spread misinformation.

Edit: I did find your twh parses on torparse you just took 1,55 k dmg there on average. So the Ratio from the parses is still the same for you, you are just a good tank

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.08.2013 , 03:50 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I find it not funny that your are not telling anything about force scream which is the MAIN damage on third phase a tank gets when kel'sara attacks him(and its f/t e/k). The average damage a tank gets from a force scream is more then double as high as from a voltaic slash hit and you get more force scream hits on third phase then voltaic slash hits as kel'saras Standard Rotation at this point is dc/fc/vs/fc/dc. Don't try to spread misinformation.
Scream hits for 17k if unshielded. That's as bad as Voltaic Slash. It does usually get used between VS and Discharge, which is my error, but it doesn't always come in that position. VS and Discharge are used a lot more over the fight and do significantly more aggregate damage. Given that itemizing for Scream steadiness (full shield loadout) results in taking dramatically more damage from VS (and increasing the likelyhood of getting an unmitigated hit) without significantly reducing the damage from Scream, I'll pass.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 04:08 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Scream hits for 17k if unshielded. That's as bad as Voltaic Slash. It does usually get used between VS and Discharge, which is my error, but it doesn't always come in that position. VS and Discharge are used a lot more over the fight and do significantly more aggregate damage. Given that itemizing for Scream steadiness (full shield loadout) results in taking dramatically more damage from VS (and increasing the likelyhood of getting an unmitigated hit) without significantly reducing the damage from Scream, I'll pass.
Scream is f/t e/k and Voltaic Slash is m/r. Now you simply turned post and pre-migation damage around (Force Scream is worse then Voltaic Slash as it cant be parried and you know that...).
Second mistake is that Force Scream is not getting between vs and discharge but instead discharge and vs are getting between force scream hits. Try to stand next to kel'sara when you taunt her after force leech and look at your combat log afterwards...
Third mistake it that your math is again wrong. Discharge is I/E attack and therefore not in the equation between shield and defense rating.
Shield Rating is working against both of the attacks, defense rating has just an uptime of 50% (just for voltaic). If you read the thread closely you see all the math that shows you that when the percentage of m/r to f/t e/k dmg is smaller then 60/40 you want ZERO defense rating on your gear (which is the case here). So your not just wrong but utterly wrong. Defense Rating is not on par with absorb rating its way worse in this phase.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.08.2013 , 09:55 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Scream is f/t e/k and Voltaic Slash is m/r. Now you simply turned post and pre-migation damage around (Force Scream is worse then Voltaic Slash as it cant be parried and you know that...).
Second mistake is that Force Scream is not getting between vs and discharge but instead discharge and vs are getting between force scream hits. Try to stand next to kel'sara when you taunt her after force leech and look at your combat log afterwards...
Third mistake it that your math is again wrong. Discharge is I/E attack and therefore not in the equation between shield and defense rating.
Shield Rating is working against both of the attacks, defense rating has just an uptime of 50% (just for voltaic). If you read the thread closely you see all the math that shows you that when the percentage of m/r to f/t e/k dmg is smaller then 60/40 you want ZERO defense rating on your gear (which is the case here). So your not just wrong but utterly wrong. Defense Rating is not on par with absorb rating its way worse in this phase.
Discharge is indeed I/E.

In any case, I don't think we're going to make any progress on this discussion. I will build the damage profile for this op as soon as I have time. In the meantime, I'm going to assume that the bosses which matter (namely, the ones that are tank checks) are using similar ratios as to HM, which is a pattern that we saw back in NiM EC. (at least between the k/e damage)
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.09.2013 , 02:31 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Discharge is indeed I/E.

In any case, I don't think we're going to make any progress on this discussion. I will build the damage profile for this op as soon as I have time. In the meantime, I'm going to assume that the bosses which matter (namely, the ones that are tank checks) are using similar ratios as to HM, which is a pattern that we saw back in NiM EC. (at least between the k/e damage)
I am rly shocked at the amount of misinformation, lies, twisted truth you and kitru are giving to the community in this thread.

Operator 9 is nowwhere near a tank check like dread guards. You get (out of combat logs) not more then 1,1k damage overall and not more then 1,5 k damage during some points of the fight. Operator is a way bigger raid healing issue and not sth. tanks should itemize themselves for. On the Dread Guard fight tanks get like 700 dmg more on average during the fight
The only thing you could do to optimize your gear for Op9 is, as Op9 is just about spike damage (according to Kitru), stacking hp (Underworld instead of veracity, B mods....) and that's contradicting to the things you tell ppl in your spreadsheets ("don't stack endurance").

The real check for tfb NiM is the Dread Guard fight (every guild that cleared dg did also clear op9 so this fight is way easier) and either you optimize for this fight or for the whole operation-damage on average (i posted the numbers above they're completely different to your "data").
Your combatlogs prove you wrong,too. I analyzed the last 41 combatlogs you posted for dg NiM fight (all wipes). You did met the enrage timer in just 4 of these fights. When this fight is no healing/tanking check like Kitru and you want to believe us, how the hell can you then wipe 37 times just to mechanics?
I also find it not funny when you are again want people to believe that the m/r attacks (your beloved voltaic slash) are doing most of the steady damage tanks receive in dg NiM. We both know that is plain wrong (its abit over 50/50 but nowhere near the 79/20 your spreadsheet indicates) but you seem to find it good to spread misinformation and twist the truth.

I think you just want to distract from the fact that your spreadsheet is completely wrong about everything for tfb NiM. You just want to take the only Boss in this Operation, which has miraculously the same percentage of m/r attacks like your spreadsheet, for the logs and then call him "The fight you should optimize for" in this Operation.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.09.2013 , 02:57 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I am rly shocked at the amount of misinformation, lies, twisted truth you and kitru are giving to the community in this thread.
I'm not spreading any misinformation whatsoever. I've specifically said that Writhing Horror is the harder tank fight than Dread Guard and, if you actually look at the *parses* (and not just the average numbers, but the actual distributions), it susses out. Writhing Horror regularly spikes to over 10k *on a Powertech* and manages only slightly lower DtPS compared to DG *while having explicitly long periods where the tank takes no damage*.

If you actually look at damage taken while *actually tanking*, Writhing Horror heals more damage *and* has much more intense spikes (assuming you don't eat the big hits from Force Leech in DG, which *should* be considered completely avoidable). As such, it *is* the bigger tank check. Hell, the spikes in DG are even *I/E* damage so you can't even tweak your stats to account for them.

The only way you can create a construct that supports your statements is by misinterpreting the actual information. DG *isn't* a tank check. It's a DPS and mechanic check (DPS check thanks to the tight enrage and mechanic thanks to the huge amounts of bad stuff that you can accidentally stand in or heals demolishing tanks with Force Leech). Check out the parses that were linked. Actually *look* at the parses rather than taking a passing look and drawing uninformed conclusions. You'll see, pretty explicitly, that TWH is actually the more intense tank fight.

You don't have a single piece of *actual* evidence to support your claim. Your only arguments are disconnected supposition (i.e. people wipe on DG which means that it's *automatically* the hardest fight for tanks because wipes are *always* due to tank screw ups) and flawed interpretation. Rather than getting on KBN and myself about misinformation, try actually figuring out what *you* are talking about. From where I'm standing, I honestly can't see *anything* you're saying as anything other than blatant misinformation.

(btw, Will, if you remove the damage from Force Leech that you shouldn't have taken, your DtPS would have dropped by 150, putting the "proper" DtPS at 1690, a good 50 DtPS lower than TWH)
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THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.09.2013 , 03:38 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I'm not spreading any misinformation whatsoever. I've specifically said that Writhing Horror is the harder tank fight than Dread Guard and, if you actually look at the *parses* (and not just the average numbers, but the actual distributions), it susses out. Writhing Horror regularly spikes to over 10k *on a Powertech* and manages only slightly lower DtPS compared to DG *while having explicitly long periods where the tank takes no damage*.

If you actually look at damage taken while *actually tanking*, Writhing Horror heals more damage *and* has much more intense spikes (assuming you don't eat the big hits from Force Leech in DG, which *should* be considered completely avoidable). As such, it *is* the bigger tank check. Hell, the spikes in DG are even *I/E* damage so you can't even tweak your stats to account for them.

The only way you can create a construct that supports your statements is by misinterpreting the actual information. DG *isn't* a tank check. It's a DPS and mechanic check (DPS check thanks to the tight enrage and mechanic thanks to the huge amounts of bad stuff that you can accidentally stand in or heals demolishing tanks with Force Leech). Check out the parses that were linked. Actually *look* at the parses rather than taking a passing look and drawing uninformed conclusions. You'll see, pretty explicitly, that TWH is actually the more intense tank fight.

You don't have a single piece of *actual* evidence to support your claim. Your only arguments are disconnected supposition (i.e. people wipe on DG which means that it's *automatically* the hardest fight for tanks because wipes are *always* due to tank screw ups) and flawed interpretation. Rather than getting on KBN and myself about misinformation, try actually figuring out what *you* are talking about. From where I'm standing, I honestly can't see *anything* you're saying as anything other than blatant misinformation.

(btw, Will, if you remove the damage from Force Leech that you shouldn't have taken, your DtPS would have dropped by 150, putting the "proper" DtPS at 1690, a good 50 DtPS lower than TWH)
That's again wrong. You have the the same times on DG Fight aswell where the tank takes no damage (you forgot about force leech time)
Force Shrouding Force Leech dmg is a very bad idea (again misinformation) as thats just about 10k dmg migated.
It's way better to Force Shroud a Force Scream and a Discharge (thats about 25k dmg migated). That happens about 3 and 5 sec after you taunt kelsara after he force leeches the other tank. KBN has 1550 Damage taken on twh so thats again over a 100 Points lower then your 1690 dps you are assuming (again misinformation).
Another wrong part is where you are assuming that the spikes tanks get from twh fight are higher then the ones tanks get on third Phase kel'sara. On Kel'sara fights tanks can get a 17k voltaic slash and a 17k force scream attacks within 1,5 -1,6 seconds (again misinformation both one of these attack are not I/E ! its f/t e/k other is m/r e/k analyze combatlogs plz) Thats so much more spike dmg then anything on twh ...

Edit: I never said that any screw-up is the tanks fault, i said that i dont believe that 37 out of 41 tries on dg from kbn where mechanic wipes. Don't twist my words around....
I looked at twh parses. The biggest possible spike within 1,5-1,6 s is Nasty Bite (all 3 Nasty Bite Stacks unmigated=13K) and a following melee attack (2 stacks both unmigated for 12k).
First awall the spikes on these fights are highly unlikely as these attacks are split in 3 or 2 stacks contrary to dg nim fight (misinformation from you). Second the dmg these attacks do is still 10k lower then dg nim spikes.
Third the m/r to f/t ratio from this spikes is about 50/50 so you dont want any defense rating for these spikes aswell

The rest of my arguments, including the little spreadsheet about the average dmg Ratio from e/k attacks, you should read them before you make such statements about me misinforming any1. I did answer to all your "arguments" , you it seems do not even read what i write. ( well i did not answer to your Statement with the low DtPS maintenance healing on dg NiM fight )