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Absorb with Minimal Defense Sin Tank

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Absorb with Minimal Defense Sin Tank

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.08.2013 , 12:31 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
When guilds wipe 100 times on dg and 1 time on withering horror, its probably better when the gear is itemized for the dread guard fight.
DG isn't hard because of the damage. It's hard because of the enrage timer. Maximizing your mitigation against the DG isn't going to make you more likely to succeed against them because it's not the damage that the tanks take that causes those wipes. It's the fact that an absurd amount of DPS is required. You're conflating "wiping" with "wiping because the tank died/took too much damage". There is some overlap, but it's not *always* the same, nor is it even close in the situation you're referring to.

If you want to itemize yourself around a fight *as a tank*, itemize around Writhing Horror and/or Operative IX. They're the only major tank checks in TfB (TWH because it hits hard enough to actually *worry* tanks and Operative IX because it's got the highest spike damage of any boss in there). Everything else is a DPS or mechanic check, especially on NiM.

If you're wiping on a fight that *isn't* a tank check, tweaking your itemization isn't going to help in the least, unless you're tweaking your itemization to increase your *damage*. If *you* are surviving fine and the group is wiping thanks to hard enrages, it means that your *DPS* should be reevaluating how they do things, not the tank since the tank is, obviously, doing *their* job perfectly.

Make sure you understand what the fights check for before you go about trying to itemize specifically for them. DG isn't something that a tank should itemize themselves around. It's something the *DPS* should itemize themselves around.
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WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
07.08.2013 , 12:39 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
For TFB NiM its actually very good to go with a maximum. of absorb and shield rating (~1300 abs/1070 shield) and with minimal defense rating as a sin tank. The reason is that the attacktypes tanks face in TFB are completely different to the ones they are facing in HM SV.
I've run similar math to this using KeyboardNinja's code (been meaning to write it up for this forum, but NIM DG exhaustion). For a fight that's more Force heavy than a 60/40 M/F split Sins want 0 defense rating, and for Powertechs anything more Force heavy than 58/42 gives a 0 desired defense rating. But, you're going to have 70 Defense on your stim, and probably another 300 or more that you just can't get rid of on your ear and implants. That pushes the M/F ratios up to around 65/35 for Sins and Powertechs to forego any defense rating on their mods, enhancements, and augments.

There has been a very good point made in this thread though, if you go into NIM DG with a HM S&V gearing build you will take quite a bit more damage.
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THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 01:07 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
DG isn't hard because of the damage. It's hard because of the enrage timer. Maximizing your mitigation against the DG isn't going to make you more likely to succeed against them because it's not the damage that the tanks take that causes those wipes. It's the fact that an absurd amount of DPS is required. You're conflating "wiping" with "wiping because the tank died/took too much damage". There is some overlap, but it's not *always* the same, nor is it even close in the situation you're referring to.

If you want to itemize yourself around a fight *as a tank*, itemize around Writhing Horror and/or Operative IX. They're the only major tank checks in TfB (TWH because it hits hard enough to actually *worry* tanks and Operative IX because it's got the highest spike damage of any boss in there). Everything else is a DPS or mechanic check, especially on NiM.

If you're wiping on a fight that *isn't* a tank check, tweaking your itemization isn't going to help in the least, unless you're tweaking your itemization to increase your *damage*. If *you* are surviving fine and the group is wiping thanks to hard enrages, it means that your *DPS* should be reevaluating how they do things, not the tank since the tank is, obviously, doing *their* job perfectly.

Make sure you understand what the fights check for before you go about trying to itemize specifically for them. DG isn't something that a tank should itemize themselves around. It's something the *DPS* should itemize themselves around.
DG is not just around dmg. I've seen way more wipes during the fight then because of any enrage timer (after nerf). Every Guild that killed DG, did kill the whole instance (afaik), so its the hardest boss in this Operation.

If a tank is not properly itemized (and itemized according to forum spreedsheets is about arcanian level for this boss) he's putting additional stress on the healers which hinders their dps, he's reducing his dmg-output (for sin tanks Lightning Reflexes, Discharge Uptime....).
If you say a Tank should optimise his gear for twh instead of DG you are assuming that healers have less problems with the Dread Guard fight healing then with the twh fight healing as healing the tanks is a large part of their job.

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THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 01:28 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
I've run similar math to this using KeyboardNinja's code (been meaning to write it up for this forum, but NIM DG exhaustion). For a fight that's more Force heavy than a 60/40 M/F split Sins want 0 defense rating, and for Powertechs anything more Force heavy than 58/42 gives a 0 desired defense rating. But, you're going to have 70 Defense on your stim, and probably another 300 or more that you just can't get rid of on your ear and implants. That pushes the M/F ratios up to around 65/35 for Sins and Powertechs to forego any defense rating on their mods, enhancements, and augments.

There has been a very good point made in this thread though, if you go into NIM DG with a HM S&V gearing build you will take quite a bit more damage.
Yes, i got the same numbers. You always have to have the Earpiece and the Stim i think. You can switch out the Veracity Implants for Underworld ones which is not that bad. Switching out the Fortunate Redoubt Relic is also not that bad as the ratio you are giving up defense rating for absorb rating is kinda okay for dg nim fight.

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Kitru
07.08.2013 , 01:30 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
If you say a Tank should optimise his gear for twh instead of DG you are assuming that healers have less problems with the Dread Guard fight healing then with the twh fight healing as healing the tanks is a large part of their job.
The bigger problem on healing NiM DG is the raid damage, not the tank damage. A tank tweaking their stats to minimize incoming damage isn't really going to make the healers' job appreciably easier since they're only a portion of the raid.

Like I said, DG isn't a tank check so tweaking your stats isn't going to affect your success. It's a mechanic/DPS check.
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THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 01:51 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The bigger problem on healing NiM DG is the raid damage, not the tank damage. A tank tweaking their stats to minimize incoming damage isn't really going to make the healers' job appreciably easier since they're only a portion of the raid.

Like I said, DG isn't a tank check so tweaking your stats isn't going to affect your success. It's a mechanic/DPS check.
Are you serious?! The "portion" is about 60% of the whole dmg a healer has to heal (out of combat logs).

Edit: When i take the ratio m/r to f/t in e/k i got following numbers for TFB NiM (i dont have a large amount of data for tfb NiM so thers a lot of variance in these results):
TWH: 0,662 DG: 0,516 Op9: 0,790 Kephess: 0,293 TFB: 0,824
Altogether thats 0,617 which would mean that sin tank should not have any defense rating except for stim and ears (more or less the data i have is too small to rly go into excact detail)
When i go for Kitru "idea" i get a 0,727 ratio (WTH +OP9) which would mean sth like veracity pieces + Fortunate Redoubt Relic but no mods/enhancements with defense rating for sin tanks.

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Kitru
07.08.2013 , 01:56 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
Are you serious?! The "portion" is about 60% of the whole dmg a healer has to heal (out of combat logs).
And it's all comparatively low DtPS maintenance healing. Tanks will *always* take more damage than DPS because they're tanking the boss(es), but it doesn't mean that the healing *pressure* is always on the tank healing front. The very fact that 40% of total incoming DPS *doesn't* go to the tanks should be a pretty big indicator that it's *not* a fight where tank survivability matters all that much. Try looking at the *actual* tank intensive fights and look at the comparative healing amounts.
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THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 02:17 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
And it's all comparatively low DtPS maintenance healing. Tanks will *always* take more damage than DPS because they're tanking the boss(es), but it doesn't mean that the healing *pressure* is always on the tank healing front. The very fact that 40% of total incoming DPS *doesn't* go to the tanks should be a pretty big indicator that it's *not* a fight where tank survivability matters all that much. Try looking at the *actual* tank intensive fights and look at the comparative healing amounts.
I did look at the twh and at the dg fight combat logs. At twh it's about 1,8k dmg, at dg it's about 2k dmg, so healers have to actually heal the tanks more at dg NiM fight then on twh. Thers a simple reason for that:. DG fight is more difficult then the twh fight so you need to be optimised for the dg fight and not for a fight that is way easier.

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WillLongstick
07.08.2013 , 02:21 PM | #19
1738 DTPS on Writhing Horror last night.

1840 DTPS on a 20% Kel'Sara enrage.

These fights are on my Powertech with just under 500 defense rating, so WH damage is inflated in order to reduce DG damage. Then consider that any log that stops before the first Force Leech has both myself and the sin cotank over 2000 DTPS. I can't come close to seeing how the Writhing Horror is the fight you need to gear for in the instance.
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Kitru
07.08.2013 , 02:40 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
1738 DTPS on Writhing Horror last night.

1840 DTPS on a 20% Kel'Sara enrage.
Both of those are WH links.
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