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Absorb with Minimal Defense Sin Tank

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Absorb with Minimal Defense Sin Tank

mongotee's Avatar


mongotee
07.04.2013 , 10:37 AM | #1
Is there any benefit to maximizing absorb and minimizing defense on a sin tank?

I.e., all absorb augs, all robust mods, all bulwark enhancements. Lvl 72 gear.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
07.04.2013 , 11:00 AM | #2
There is not. All absorb and 0 defense is not optimal.

There is a benefit from following optimal stat distribution such as one of these
1 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779
2 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=645948

Which of course involves getting a lot more absorption than defense, but not like you suggest.

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
07.05.2013 , 12:59 AM | #3
there will be less attacks defended so the damage profile is more stable
(more full damage or half damage less no damage)
your dark ward stacks will deplete faster -> Dark Bulwark will build faster
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THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.07.2013 , 03:02 PM | #4
For TFB NiM its actually very good to go with a maximum. of absorb and shield rating (~1300 abs/1070 shield) and with minimal defense rating as a sin tank. The reason is that the attacktypes tanks face in TFB are completely different to the ones they are facing in HM SV.
Some spreadsheets on the forum are assuming that 78% of the damage is m/r type (which defense rating is working on). That is just wrong. For TFB NiM dread guard fight for example its just about 28% m/r damage (+ 38% f/t i/e damage and 34% f/t e/k dmg out of combatlogs).
So, practically speaking defense rating is worthless for 72% of the dmg dealt to tanks on the Dread Guard NiM fight and therefore is inferior to any shield and absorbtion rating you can get as a sin tank.
For the other bosses in TFB NiM its about the same, although the difference in attacktypes is on a smaller scale (Withering Horror deals ~ 40% f/t e/k damage and about 58% m/r damage, so you want minimal defense rating there aswell).

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.07.2013 , 07:33 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
For TFB NiM its actually very good to go with a maximum. of absorb and shield rating (~1300 abs/1070 shield) and with minimal defense rating as a sin tank. The reason is that the attacktypes tanks face in TFB are completely different to the ones they are facing in HM SV.
Some spreadsheets on the forum are assuming that 78% of the damage is m/r type (which defense rating is working on). That is just wrong. For TFB NiM dread guard fight for example its just about 28% m/r damage (+ 38% f/t i/e damage and 34% f/t e/k dmg out of combatlogs).
So, practically speaking defense rating is worthless for 72% of the dmg dealt to tanks on the Dread Guard NiM fight and therefore is inferior to any shield and absorbtion rating you can get as a sin tank.
For the other bosses in TFB NiM its about the same, although the difference in attacktypes is on a smaller scale (Withering Horror deals ~ 40% f/t e/k damage and about 58% m/r damage, so you want minimal defense rating there aswell).
That doesn't align with my combat logs. Additionally, you need to adjust damage to consider the pre-mitigation ratios, rather than post-mitigation (which is what Torparse gives you). M/r+k/e is the most heavily mitigated category, which means it has been reduced by the most relative to the other categories before it appears in your combat logs. I haven't pulled out all of the data from the bosses in NiM TfB yet, but my preliminary results indicate that it isn't as far off as you seem to think.

Even if it were, as long as there is some m/r attacks, defense will have a place. DRs are a real thing, and defense has a much better rate of return relative to shield + absorb.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 02:20 AM | #6
@ KBN: That's plain wrong. You just want defense rating on your sin tank if the ratio between m/r and f/t attacks is over a certain level. Just do the maths with your spreadsheet and dont use 79% m/r attacks.
In current Dread Guard Fight NiM u dont want any defense rating at all. Even if i count in the post migation (that means then 22,8% I/E damage, 37,4% f/t e/k dmg and 39,7 % m/r damage) thers still more then a 100% variance to the spreadsheet formulas (79% m/r) ("as far off...")
If i for example take your Ratings {2400,{defense->522,shield->875,absorb->1002}} i get a migation of 0,422040 .
If i use minimal defense rating (70 from stim) with 1297 a / 1032 s i get 0,417696 (more then half a gear Level difference in migation) on the dg NiM fight.
Even if the parses i looked at are completely different to the average, it wont explain a ratio difference from 39,7% to 79%.

Edit: For Withering Horror you have more m/r attackdmg post migation (about 67,5%) but thats still less then the spreadsheets assume. So for this Boss you want about 400 defense rating then. But i think you should optimize your gear for dread guard fight.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.08.2013 , 07:49 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
@ KBN: That's plain wrong. You just want defense rating on your sin tank if the ratio between m/r and f/t attacks is over a certain level. Just do the maths with your spreadsheet and dont use 79% m/r attacks.
In current Dread Guard Fight NiM u dont want any defense rating at all. Even if i count in the post migation (that means then 22,8% I/E damage, 37,4% f/t e/k dmg and 39,7 % m/r damage) thers still more then a 100% variance to the spreadsheet formulas (79% m/r) ("as far off...")
If i for example take your Ratings {2400,{defense->522,shield->875,absorb->1002}} i get a migation of 0,422040 .
If i use minimal defense rating (70 from stim) with 1297 a / 1032 s i get 0,417696 (more then half a gear Level difference in migation) on the dg NiM fight.
Even if the parses i looked at are completely different to the average, it wont explain a ratio difference from 39,7% to 79%.

Edit: For Withering Horror you have more m/r attackdmg post migation (about 67,5%) but thats still less then the spreadsheets assume. So for this Boss you want about 400 defense rating then. But i think you should optimize your gear for dread guard fight.
At any non-zero ratio of m/r attacks, I can push the stat budget up arbitrarily high and get to a point where defense is extremely valuable.

I will do the processing on my combat logs in the near future. I would be very, very surprised if your assertions were accurate given that TfB HM aligns quite closely with S&V in terms of damage ratios (a little less m/r, but not much).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 08:41 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
At any non-zero ratio of m/r attacks, I can push the stat budget up arbitrarily high and get to a point where defense is extremely valuable.

I will do the processing on my combat logs in the near future. I would be very, very surprised if your assertions were accurate given that TfB HM aligns quite closely with S&V in terms of damage ratios (a little less m/r, but not much).
Pushing up the stat Budget arbitrarily high is nonsense giving the current stat Budget (2,4 -2,6K) tanks are able to have.

Could you please tell me how you are assuming a 79% m/r on dread guard NiM/HM fight (which is currently the fight i would optimize tank stats for). The only m/r attacks on this fight are afaik Saber Strike, Voltaic Slash and Assault from Kel'sara (and Legionaires) and Sweeping Slash, Battering Assault and Pummel from Ciphas. These attacks make afaik post migation not much more then 41% of the total damage Tanks receive in this fight.

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
07.08.2013 , 10:47 AM | #9
he isnt assuming damage weights based on a single fight. if somsoen wants to change their gear loadout for every fight, then, sure, they should take out some def for abs for f/t heavy fights. but if you want to perform well over the entire instance with the same set of stats, then you should find the average damage weights from all the fights and gear for that.

i will say that going with all absorb does reduce spikiness a little:

optimized 2600 with set amount of shield:
pool 2600
dps 4500
pre armor squish 0.500976152
total squish 0.30373018
pre heals/absorb dtps 1367
post heals dtps 1034.91
damage per HP 3.292395898
spike 0.054199547

full absorb build:
pool 2600
dps 4500
pre armor squish 0.511364122
total squish 0.309827721
pre heals/absorb dtps 1394
post heals dtps 1062.35
damage per HP 3.227600157
spike 0.053149725

so you end up taking around 30 more damage per second by going with all absorb in order to decrease spike by .001

if you assume 70% if force/tech, then you want all absorb. its not until m/r is 60% of k/e damage that defense becomes viable.

for tfb hm lvl 50 info, you still want around 400 defense rating, assuming 50% w/k 25% t/k and 25% t/i

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
07.08.2013 , 12:17 PM | #10
@dipstik:
First Topic: Especially for TFB NiM tanks should focus their gear around certain bosses (Dread Guards) and not on the average dmg in the whole instance, as the whole instance is not on the same difficult level (in my opinion). When guilds wipe 100 times on dg and 1 time on withering horror, its probably better when the gear is itemized for the dread guard fight.

Second Topic: Completely away from the topic as all your assumptions with 0,001 reduced spikiness.... are made for 79% m/r attacks (which is an average number for SV HM). The variance of the attack types you see f.e. in tfb NiM is not in your later results, so i dont see any reason (when we have a 80% variance on the first formula) to use 10 numbers without variance for your "results".

Third Topic: Yes when i use your formula defense rating becomes viable when m/r is over 60% off all e/k dmg. Still Dread Guard fight has just about 50% m/r (of all e/k dmg), so you absolutly dont want any defense rating (atleast for sin tanks) for DG fight.