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Domino Effect and the Pyrotech

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Domino Effect and the Pyrotech

BoushhDC's Avatar


BoushhDC
07.03.2013 , 04:40 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by OldSpiceSwag View Post
what, are you actually saying that the type of class one goes after depends on that person's class? what are you talking about?
Okay, let's see if I can simplify this. Slim's argument is that if Pyro's hadn't been nerfed, they'd be the ones to shut down the Op healers and therefore there wouldn't be as many people calling them over-powered. Put another way, in his view, the only reason that people view Op healers as OP is that Pyro's can't burst them down. Again, that's SlimsPicken's assertion.

My counterpoint was that 99% of all Pyrotech's I have encountered (and I've played since beta, so I've seen quite a few), because of their skill set, almost exclusively tended to prioritize their targets in terms of clusters and squishy targets, though not necessarily in that order. They have never, in my observation, ever made difficult to kill and elusive targets (which Operatives/Scoundrels certainly are) one of their top priorities.

Therefore, my counter argument to Slim is that whatever changes Pyrotech's have undergone has zero bearing on the potency of Op healers since they didn't target them when they were less hard to kill than they are now.
All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved. --Sun Tzu

Jyzai's Avatar


Jyzai
07.03.2013 , 04:59 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by BoushhDC View Post
Cool story... but 99.9% of the time Pyro's weren't going after Op/Scoundrel healers as it was. I have one that I've levelled entirely through PvP and Pyro's almost *never* have come after me; it was mostly Assassins, Marauders & Juggernauts and more recently mostly the Assassins and sometimes Marauders. I almost never had to deal with Pyro's because they were off getting in the face of everybody else -- and as many as they could simultaneously -- randomly all over the place, basically wherever the biggest clusters were, or the squishiest targets.

But, on my DPS Commando, I had nothing but Pyro's in my grill all WZ long. I figured out pretty quickly that if I was in Huttball, to just stay away from the ball carrier and those Pyro's (if there was one, there were bound to be at least 3) would chase me all over the map, well away from the action and my team would win 6-0 just about every time. Sure, I like to help the team win, but it got old having my butt shooting flames all day long. lol. Sorry, but I don't miss you guys.
If it makes you feel any better on my pyro pt I was always chased around by sents and shadows and targeted by mandos with there grav round spam in huttball.
So let me get this straight you want to add a debuff to keep people from quitting warzones, then you might as well get ready for insults at you and others on the team.

SlimsPicken's Avatar


SlimsPicken
07.03.2013 , 05:00 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by BoushhDC View Post
Okay, let's see if I can simplify this. Slim's argument is that if Pyro's hadn't been nerfed, they'd be the ones to shut down the Op healers and therefore there wouldn't be as many people calling them over-powered. Put another way, in his view, the only reason that people view Op healers as OP is that Pyro's can't burst them down. Again, that's SlimsPicken's assertion.

My counterpoint was that 99% of all Pyrotech's I have encountered (and I've played since beta, so I've seen quite a few), because of their skill set, almost exclusively tended to prioritize their targets in terms of clusters and squishy targets, though not necessarily in that order. They have never, in my observation, ever made difficult to kill and elusive targets (which Operatives/Scoundrels certainly are) one of their top priorities.

Therefore, my counter argument to Slim is that whatever changes Pyrotech's have undergone has zero bearing on the potency of Op healers since they didn't target them when they were less hard to kill than they are now.
So you played with/against bad powertechs that dont focus enemy healers?

When PTs had the burst to do it, a good PT could shut down a operative healer so completely that they will be able to do nothing but heal themselves to try and stay alive. 2 PTs would kill any healer guarded or not.

My point is that when bioware takes away the burst classes that were best at specifically dealing with the operative healers, the operative healers seem overpowered because one of the main threats to their survival is gone from the game.

It has nothing to do with the fact that most players are bad, and PT or not, didnt focus on healers. The good ones did, and they were enough to keep guarded operative heals in check.

With a permanent slow from their cylinder, too many DoTs to cleanse and waste a GCD, and a 6 second ramp up on rail procs to dump burst coupled with TD/ED, no operative healer could use the 30% probe spam to keep alive. Roll wouldnt even help against them since it would be 6m due to the slows, and they would just get grappled back to kill range.

Its all conjecture, because PTs were nerfed and Ops were buffed so we can never truly know because they arent strong at the same time, but trust me, good PTs wrecked face on operative healers pre 2.0 detonator nerf, and I believe would continue to do so now if un nerfed back to what they were.

But regardless, it does not matter when people are bads like you are talking about. In that case nothing would matter to help them.
For every man there is a sentence, a string of words, which has the power to destroy him.

Monkfishysnow's Avatar


Monkfishysnow
07.03.2013 , 06:36 PM | #44
When obviously new scoundrels or operative healers are out healing an experienced Sage by 300k+ heals all the time, then something is very OP somewhere. Not to mention you stick out like a sore thumb as a Sage healer and get DPSd down in 10 seconds, or 1 second if your Force Shield Bubble of Impenetrable Defence is on CD. xP

BoushhDC's Avatar


BoushhDC
07.03.2013 , 06:37 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by SlimsPicken View Post
So you played with/against bad powertechs that dont focus enemy healers?
That's not quite what I said. Combat medics? Forget about it! Choicest of morsels. And they'd focus Sages alot. Typical scenario: Sage is standing at/near the back of the fighters pretty much catching hell from all directions. They drop a healing circle on the ground that they and several others stand in. In swoops the Pyrotech to their midst, grapples in another for good measure, carbonize, set aflame, cryo the sage in case they look like they are about to rabbit, and burn them down. C'mon, you've seen it plenty, I'm sure. It's the main reason I keep my Scoundrel healer away from as many other players as possible, and you know that the Pyros get the giggles AOE'ing as many as possible.

Quote: Originally Posted by SlimsPicken View Post
When PTs had the burst to do it, a good PT could shut down a operative healer so completely that they will be able to do nothing but heal themselves to try and stay alive. 2 PTs would kill any healer guarded or not.
Oh, I know they *could* do it, most of them just chose not too. It was much more fun wiping out large swaths of players in one fell swoop, or quickly burn down defenseless squishies once the opponents got more spread out. Chasing after an operative/scoundrel that would just dirty kick them, flash grenade them, or disappear? Meh, waste of their efforts, GCDs and burst. Besides they could see other's running around after them anyway (Assassins, marauders, etc).

Quote: Originally Posted by SlimsPicken View Post
My point is that when bioware takes away the burst classes that were best at specifically dealing with the operative healers, the operative healers seem overpowered because one of the main threats to their survival is gone from the game.
I get what you're saying, but again, that's not what they were doing. They were not going after the Op healers. They aren't going after them even now with what is one of the best counter's to the roll/scamper: grapple/harpoon. I've not seen it used a single time. What's the excuse there? It can't be avoided, but Pyro's aren't even targeting them to be in a position to use it once an Op tries to take off. Forget burst. Even if a Pyro could accept the idea that they might have to rely on their teammates for help for once, they still aren't using the tools they have. When slowed (a basic attack in the Pyro tree), it shortens their roll by half, and they can't use it if imobilized. It's not even like what snipers/gunslinger's get which is 100% dodge then into cover, breaking movement slowing effects. Bottom line, it *can* be dealt with. Some are trying but for the most part, none of them are Pyros. I agree with you that they can, however. The main difference is that while Pyro's largely never had to rely on teammates before, now they do, and they don't like it. That's why we mark healers... so that more than one person will hit them.

Way back when, I rolled a Vanguard to see what all the hubbub was about. I have to say, it was a refreshing change from the other classes that I played to be able to jump into the fray and wreak havoc, comparatively unscathed. Didn't have to worry about trying to minimize exposure to the enemy, create LOS issues for those that might be hitting from afar... basically, not have to worry about placement at all... just go in and mow 'em down whether I had assistance or not... if I was going to go down, I was taking a number of others with me. I see the attraction, but with all the other classes I play, I can't be that cavalier and i have to instead rely on help from others on my team. It's pretty different, and personally, I felt it was also pretty easy mode. Nothing wrong with that in theory (every MMO seems to have a class that's easier to play than the others), but when a single class becomes so attractive due to such traits (no sweat to dominate everyone else), that it's common to go against 3-6 or more of the *exact* same spec in every WZ (I think I'd get a Pyro-less WZ once every 3 days or so) then that BW guy, Metrics, gets involved in a big way. At launch, it was Sorcs all day long (4-8 every WZ), and unfortunately, from time to time still do, so it's not anywhere near ideal, yet.

While I won't go so far as to say the classes are totally balanced now, I have noticed a more broad representation of classes across the WZs... well, on the Republic side, at least.
All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved. --Sun Tzu

TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
07.03.2013 , 06:55 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by AngusFTW View Post
Nothing really changed with watchman the entire time apart from the healer player base becoming more knowledgeable about cleansing the dots..
Dot cleansing isn't the issue. Medics cleansing watchman dots in PVP are wasting time. The global CD for the dot cleanse would be better spent using kolto pack (7500 healing), than cleansing the dots which will be reapplied very quickly. The nerfs to the watchman's dot damage (9% damage reduction) and the self-healing nerfs are what killed watchman.

BTW, I wasn't saying that pyro does not need buffed. I was saying that some other classes such as sentinel and jedi shadow only have 1 viable spec right now, so powertech isn't the only class that has specs that need buffed.
Multiple characters on Pot5

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
07.03.2013 , 08:01 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
Dot cleansing isn't the issue. Medics cleansing watchman dots in PVP are wasting time. The global CD for the dot cleanse would be better spent using kolto pack (7500 healing), than cleansing the dots which will be reapplied very quickly. The nerfs to the watchman's dot damage (9% damage reduction) and the self-healing nerfs are what killed watchman.

BTW, I wasn't saying that pyro does not need buffed. I was saying that some other classes such as sentinel and jedi shadow only have 1 viable spec right now, so powertech isn't the only class that has specs that need buffed.
Exactly they have viable specs, van/PT has no viable dps trees and the tank tree is outstripped by jugg tanks in every catagory
Crinn
Trooper Hunter

Vanguard | Commando | Powertech | Mercenary
Quote: Originally Posted by LanceCorporalDan View Post
"the most intersting PvPer on the server..."

Boch's Avatar


Boch
07.03.2013 , 08:16 PM | #48
Yes Pyro Pts were good at killing healers, but if they reverted the nerfs it still wouldn't change the fact that OP healers are much better than the other. On PTs is was easiest to kill sorcs, then OPS and Mercs were about the same. But with the 2.0 changes it would still be much easier to kill sorcs and mercs then OPS. So just buffing one class wont fix the problem.
Konts of <Ascension>
Rolling with a pocket guard since 2.0.

OldSpiceSwag's Avatar


OldSpiceSwag
07.03.2013 , 08:28 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by BoushhDC View Post
That's not quite what I said. Combat medics? Forget about it! Choicest of morsels. And they'd focus Sages alot. Typical scenario: Sage is standing at/near the back of the fighters pretty much catching hell from all directions. They drop a healing circle on the ground that they and several others stand in. In swoops the Pyrotech to their midst, grapples in another for good measure, carbonize, set aflame, cryo the sage in case they look like they are about to rabbit, and burn them down. C'mon, you've seen it plenty, I'm sure. It's the main reason I keep my Scoundrel healer away from as many other players as possible, and you know that the Pyros get the giggles AOE'ing as many as possible.



Oh, I know they *could* do it, most of them just chose not too. It was much more fun wiping out large swaths of players in one fell swoop, or quickly burn down defenseless squishies once the opponents got more spread out. Chasing after an operative/scoundrel that would just dirty kick them, flash grenade them, or disappear? Meh, waste of their efforts, GCDs and burst. Besides they could see other's running around after them anyway (Assassins, marauders, etc).



I get what you're saying, but again, that's not what they were doing. They were not going after the Op healers. They aren't going after them even now with what is one of the best counter's to the roll/scamper: grapple/harpoon. I've not seen it used a single time. What's the excuse there? It can't be avoided, but Pyro's aren't even targeting them to be in a position to use it once an Op tries to take off. Forget burst. Even if a Pyro could accept the idea that they might have to rely on their teammates for help for once, they still aren't using the tools they have. When slowed (a basic attack in the Pyro tree), it shortens their roll by half, and they can't use it if imobilized. It's not even like what snipers/gunslinger's get which is 100% dodge then into cover, breaking movement slowing effects. Bottom line, it *can* be dealt with. Some are trying but for the most part, none of them are Pyros. I agree with you that they can, however. The main difference is that while Pyro's largely never had to rely on teammates before, now they do, and they don't like it. That's why we mark healers... so that more than one person will hit them.

Way back when, I rolled a Vanguard to see what all the hubbub was about. I have to say, it was a refreshing change from the other classes that I played to be able to jump into the fray and wreak havoc, comparatively unscathed. Didn't have to worry about trying to minimize exposure to the enemy, create LOS issues for those that might be hitting from afar... basically, not have to worry about placement at all... just go in and mow 'em down whether I had assistance or not... if I was going to go down, I was taking a number of others with me. I see the attraction, but with all the other classes I play, I can't be that cavalier and i have to instead rely on help from others on my team. It's pretty different, and personally, I felt it was also pretty easy mode. Nothing wrong with that in theory (every MMO seems to have a class that's easier to play than the others), but when a single class becomes so attractive due to such traits (no sweat to dominate everyone else), that it's common to go against 3-6 or more of the *exact* same spec in every WZ (I think I'd get a Pyro-less WZ once every 3 days or so) then that BW guy, Metrics, gets involved in a big way. At launch, it was Sorcs all day long (4-8 every WZ), and unfortunately, from time to time still do, so it's not anywhere near ideal, yet.

While I won't go so far as to say the classes are totally balanced now, I have noticed a more broad representation of classes across the WZs... well, on the Republic side, at least.
im pretty sure you're trolling now. nobody could be dumb enough to think pts played like an aoe class or purposely ignored a healer just because they were an op or because they were further away from other players. nobody could be that stupid

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
07.03.2013 , 09:14 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by BanetheDarkLord View Post
With all this talk about this edition of SWTOR PvP being very healer friendly, more specifically the Scoundrels/Operatives *(WHICH I DON"T THINK ARE OP)* I wanted to dive in and find out exactly why it ended up this way. Why is this such a healer friendly PvP now? Why do so many people THINK Scoundrels/Operatives are OP?

Well the obvious thing would be to look at the classes themselves. (From this point on I will be saying this from the Imperial perspective in terms of names of abilities and talents because that is what I have played). The biggest claim to the Operatives being OP is the roll. Yes its a BIG game changer and we have seen that with strategies revolving around using those rolls effectively, especially at the start of games/rounds. Although there are many tools that all the classes have to slowdown or root the Operatives in combat that severely reduce its effectiveness. Not enough people use them efficiently and in turn see the Operatives as "OP."

Healing across the board has gone up between all three classes. Yes the Operatives and Sorcs seem to be a little more effective in a WZ, but the Merc really isn't as far behind as some may think. I haven't really thought about exactly what the Mercs would need, but that's not what this thread is about so I'll move on and save that thought for later. As mentioned, the healing output has gone up overall and so has DPS......mostly

This brings me to my main point. Before 2.0 one of the most powerful burst DPS classes in the game was the Pyrotech. Even going back to early patches, it continued to be slightly nerfed over and over, but still was a monster of a DPS class. Although, come 2.0 it took a severe hit and now rarely do you see a full Pyrotech in game. Mostly people have gone to hybrid specs that involve getting Oil Slick, changed to Advanced Prototype, or changed to Tank.

Now lets say....Pyrotech had the 1.7 Thermal Detonator and CGC damage wasn't nerfed by 50%, BUT the Advanced Prototype tree looked as it does presently (basically Charged Gauntlets being tied to Prototype Cylinder Ventilation) as to not have the crazy hybrid from the first 2.0 PTS. What would we be seeing today? Would healing still be king in PvP? Would the cries of OP rolls still be happening as much? (Because you know there would still be whining about it no matter what )

Remember, CGC was mainly done from your Flame Burst which was a low heat and constantly used attack in Pyro, which would constantly apply a 30% slow to the affected target, which in turn would severely lesson the effectiveness of the roll as it would only go half distance. Plus Flame Sweep in 2.0 applying CGC and at a lower heat cost would help with slowing multiple healers. Finally, we know how many people had been playing the Pyrotech, including myself (although I thoroughly enjoy the fun of AdvProto).

Anyway, not sure exactly how to "conclude" this post except to just put it up for discussion. How different would WZs be if Pyrotech didn't get the CGC nerf and change to Thermal Detonator? Would it still be healer friendly? Would we see too many corpses on the battlefield? Or would it actually be a little more balanced?
This has nothing to do with anything but powertech damage.

Health went up about 50%, some healing specs got their resource problems fixed, operatives got a roll (which can't be slowed at the start of the game when it is most beneficial) and sorcs got a 10s invincibility bubble. Tanks also got extra mitigation from improved shielding mechanics. All of these benefit healers and healing.

Comparitively, the dps classes didn't get more dps, in fact much dps was nerfed when crit was reduced. And none of the classes got extra dps. Assuming all these classes specced into dps, snipers got mobility, ops got mobility, juggs got more defense, marauders got a ranged aoe throw (which doesn't increase their primary dps rotation at all in any of their specs), sins got mobility, sorcs got defense, mercs and pts got mobility (and mercs got a net). The reworking of most trees didn't really buff anyone's damage save for a few rare and specific scenarios which mostly don't apply to rated play, and merc net won't keep up with all the other healing buffs.

It's not pyro nerfs that caused healing to perform better, it's the massive sweeping survivability and healing buffs.
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