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Domino Effect and the Pyrotech

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Domino Effect and the Pyrotech

BanetheDarkLord's Avatar


BanetheDarkLord
07.03.2013 , 07:59 AM | #1
With all this talk about this edition of SWTOR PvP being very healer friendly, more specifically the Scoundrels/Operatives *(WHICH I DON"T THINK ARE OP)* I wanted to dive in and find out exactly why it ended up this way. Why is this such a healer friendly PvP now? Why do so many people THINK Scoundrels/Operatives are OP?

Well the obvious thing would be to look at the classes themselves. (From this point on I will be saying this from the Imperial perspective in terms of names of abilities and talents because that is what I have played). The biggest claim to the Operatives being OP is the roll. Yes its a BIG game changer and we have seen that with strategies revolving around using those rolls effectively, especially at the start of games/rounds. Although there are many tools that all the classes have to slowdown or root the Operatives in combat that severely reduce its effectiveness. Not enough people use them efficiently and in turn see the Operatives as "OP."

Healing across the board has gone up between all three classes. Yes the Operatives and Sorcs seem to be a little more effective in a WZ, but the Merc really isn't as far behind as some may think. I haven't really thought about exactly what the Mercs would need, but that's not what this thread is about so I'll move on and save that thought for later. As mentioned, the healing output has gone up overall and so has DPS......mostly

This brings me to my main point. Before 2.0 one of the most powerful burst DPS classes in the game was the Pyrotech. Even going back to early patches, it continued to be slightly nerfed over and over, but still was a monster of a DPS class. Although, come 2.0 it took a severe hit and now rarely do you see a full Pyrotech in game. Mostly people have gone to hybrid specs that involve getting Oil Slick, changed to Advanced Prototype, or changed to Tank.

Now lets say....Pyrotech had the 1.7 Thermal Detonator and CGC damage wasn't nerfed by 50%, BUT the Advanced Prototype tree looked as it does presently (basically Charged Gauntlets being tied to Prototype Cylinder Ventilation) as to not have the crazy hybrid from the first 2.0 PTS. What would we be seeing today? Would healing still be king in PvP? Would the cries of OP rolls still be happening as much? (Because you know there would still be whining about it no matter what )

Remember, CGC was mainly done from your Flame Burst which was a low heat and constantly used attack in Pyro, which would constantly apply a 30% slow to the affected target, which in turn would severely lesson the effectiveness of the roll as it would only go half distance. Plus Flame Sweep in 2.0 applying CGC and at a lower heat cost would help with slowing multiple healers. Finally, we know how many people had been playing the Pyrotech, including myself (although I thoroughly enjoy the fun of AdvProto).

Anyway, not sure exactly how to "conclude" this post except to just put it up for discussion. How different would WZs be if Pyrotech didn't get the CGC nerf and change to Thermal Detonator? Would it still be healer friendly? Would we see too many corpses on the battlefield? Or would it actually be a little more balanced?
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stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
07.03.2013 , 08:07 AM | #2
Its the same with all classes though I don't think any class has had a period of time where all three specs were useful.

Pyrotechs make quite good tanks now I've found when well played where is Sin tanks are mediocre but their deception tree is useful in Pvp.

Sorcerers madness tree used to be good in pvp but it took a knock with some of its changes and its other trees were boosted.

Look at sentinels and watchman, now there is a prime example its next to useless in Pvp now the opposite of what it used to be. Nerfs and buffs, what I hate is the bugs within the warzone bolster and gearing system Its ridiculous some of it. They come up with proc relics which don't even work properly Pvp is a shambles at the moment in general nothing specific to any one class.

Bioware will never admit their mistakes they believe the majority want this bugged system. If it worked like it was supposed to maybe it would help but clearly their programmers are mediocre at best I know this is complicated work but for the cash they invested in this game the amount of bugs is ridiculous.

TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
07.03.2013 , 08:09 AM | #3
Watchman spec got nerfed multiple times. Watchman was one of the best specs to kill medics prior to patch 1.5. Pyro powertech isn't the only spec that shouldn't have been nerfed.
Multiple characters on Pot5

Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
07.03.2013 , 08:19 AM | #4
They did more than that to kill pyrotechs.

1. They took away a good deal of armor penetration on rail shot. No idea why, I guess someone thought that a 7K single target attack was overpowered when smashers can AOE for 8K.

2. The CGC nerf had to happen, the dot was easy mode as it was, but it did take away a third of the pyro's damage. Which makes the armor pen and TD nerf even worse.

3. We all know about TD. As a top tier skill it is one of the worst in the game.

4. We lost energy rebounder. Our ONE good defense CD. GONE. It reduced the long cooldown of our shields and gave us an occasional redoubt proc that would absorb damage. Nobody mentions this but the pyro spec sorely needed it. They gave it to AP.

All together, it destroyed the class. That's why nobody plays it. No burst. No defense. The decision was so bad I can't believe that it was done. It makes absolutely no sense unless the devs seriously just play operatives or smashers, and they wanted to kill off the PT class out of rage or spite.

I can't believe I made it this far without seriously insulting Bioware or their employees.

Please fix (1), (3), and (4). Fix the class Bioware.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
07.03.2013 , 08:24 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Brunner_Venda View Post
They did more than that to kill pyrotechs.

1. They took away a good deal of armor penetration on rail shot. No idea why, I guess someone thought that a 7K single target attack was overpowered when smashers can AOE for 8K.

2. The CGC nerf had to happen, the dot was easy mode as it was, but it did take away a third of the pyro's damage. Which makes the armor pen and TD nerf even worse.

3. We all know about TD. As a top tier skill it is one of the worst in the game.

4. We lost energy rebounder. Our ONE good defense CD. GONE. It reduced the long cooldown of our shields and gave us an occasional redoubt proc that would absorb damage. Nobody mentions this but the pyro spec sorely needed it. They gave it to AP.

All together, it destroyed the class. That's why nobody plays it. No burst. No defense. The decision was so bad I can't believe that it was done. It makes absolutely no sense unless the devs seriously just play operatives or smashers, and they wanted to kill off the PT class out of rage or spite.

I can't believe I made it this far without seriously insulting Bioware or their employees.

Please fix (1), (3), and (4). Fix the class Bioware.
AP needed it more than you. Sustained DPS specs like AP need more sustained defense to put it out. I agree that you're flat out broken after the nerfs as pyro, but if you got to keep your burst, losing the shield doesn't mean too much. A good defense is a good offense.

EDIT: Also carnage. Carnage is now a lot harder to play. I'm thinking scream should be hitting harder than force smash. One's AOE, free, and can be used every 7-8 seconds, the other is single target, costs 2 rage, and can only be used every 9 seconds. If single target burst came back then we'd all be gooood
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao
Next time you hear about someone getting raped ask them if it was like PvP in an MMO.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
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Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
07.03.2013 , 08:35 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
AP needed it more than you. Sustained DPS specs like AP need more sustained defense to put it out. I agree that you're flat out broken after the nerfs as pyro, but if you got to keep your burst, losing the shield doesn't mean too much. A good defense is a good offense.
LOL Well we're not sustained DPS anymore now are we? Pyro needed the rebounder. They should have come up with something better for AP.

For example: They should have given AP oil slick instead, it's a better defensive CD since it slows everyone down and takes 30% accuracy away. Not to mention that it seems more of a 'gadget-type' thing. A creative dev would have taken it further and then allowed AP to ignite the oil slick with PFT - burning all hostiles inside of it. The best skills are the ones that all fit and work together. Oil slick would at least make PFT easier to apply to more people.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
07.03.2013 , 08:37 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Brunner_Venda View Post
LOL Well we're not sustained DPS anymore now are we? Pyro needed the rebounder. They should have come up with something better for AP.

For example: They should have given AP oil slick instead, it's a better defensive CD since it slows everyone down and takes 30% accuracy away. Not to mention that it seems more of a 'gadget-type' thing. A creative dev would have taken it further and then allowed AP to ignite the oil slick with PFT - burning all hostiles inside of it. The best skills are the ones that all fit and work together. Oil slick would at least make PFT easier to apply to more people.
Well, I played AP back when PTF required 5 stacks.... I had no free GCDs in my rotation and could only do it three times before overheating

We always had something to use, and that, in my book, is sustained. If you play something like carnage, you'll have a lot of blank times where you're just doing massacre.

Also I super agree with oil slick
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao
Next time you hear about someone getting raped ask them if it was like PvP in an MMO.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

znihilist's Avatar


znihilist
07.03.2013 , 08:37 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
Watchman spec got nerfed multiple times. Watchman was one of the best specs to kill medics prior to patch 1.5. Pyro powertech isn't the only spec that shouldn't have been nerfed.
Amen to that
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Boch's Avatar


Boch
07.03.2013 , 08:39 AM | #9
The roll isn't the main issue with op healers. The skill itself maybe a problem. But the main reason Ops are op is they have no resource management requirements and healing in general is over tuned.. Add in all there escapes and mobility and you have an op class.
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AngusFTW's Avatar


AngusFTW
07.03.2013 , 08:41 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
Watchman spec got nerfed multiple times. Watchman was one of the best specs to kill medics prior to patch 1.5. Pyro powertech isn't the only spec that shouldn't have been nerfed.
Nothing really changed with watchman the entire time apart from the healer player base becoming more knowledgeable about cleansing the dots..
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