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Dread Guard nerf - Catering to the Casual


countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
07.31.2013 , 02:37 AM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
No, 16>8 in challenge and difficulty. Lighter DPS check, harder tanking and healing. Much more emphasis on group coordination, group availability, raid damage and pride. I say pride because there is LITERALLY NO REASON TO DO 16 MAN OVER 8. We don't get anything more other than the pride from killing something on the hardest difficulty setting.

8>16 in popularity and availability. Hard as **** DPS check, Light tanking and healing. Much more emphasis on group composition and synergy. I like 8 man because its about the individual players performance over the group performance so everyone is taking much more responsibility upon themselves. If it was easy to get 16 individuals on the same page as it is in 8 man. 16 man content would be widely more popular.
That's like saying wrestling a bear is more difficult than knife fighting a shark. As I recall, pre nerf 8man NiM DG had a seriously intense tanking, healing and DPS check. The 20sec extention(it seemed to be 20sec, not the 30sec Bioware claimed based on our kill video timing) only made the fight more realistically tuned and made it reasonably repeatable without having to spend 10 hours each week to get that perfect pull. If anything, heal load was higher than in 16man because there are only 2 players, if one makes energy mistakes then the issue compounds much farther because there aren't 3 or 4 other healers to hold up the lost weight until recovery is made. 16man is not harder, it presents a different set of obstacles to overcome. Coordination is about it, there are a myriad of different strats that can be employed based on the fact you have 8 more players in the instance, more abilities to use and abuse. Severity Gaming's NiM Thrash kill is the embodiment of this, there's no way you can get away with ignoring the multi-sniper packs in 8man and you are forced to confront and defeat them. If you want to make this argument internet simple here it is: 8man is about precision, 16man is about coordination.

I don't have the patience, the raid time, or most importantly the desire to attempt to down bosses in a group with 8 more players who all have the innate human ability to durp and wipe the raid. I'd rather be required to be precise to a pinhead with my actions than be sloppier and hope to god that the 15 other morons-in-hiding I'm raiding with don't make a fight ending mistake. That doesn't mean 16man is harder, it most certainly isn't if the fight is tuned properly. It just means you have a different obstacle to overcome to kill the boss. I got tired of 16man NiM Tanks where 1 person consistently wiped the raid for 2 hours on the same mechanic. Both versions of the fight were difficult, one was overtuned. That doesn't mean 16man is harder, just like 8man NiM DG wasn't any harder. It was improperly tuned because Bioware is lazy with their number crunching. If you think 16man is more difficult, explain HM TC and HM S/V. Clownshow raids in 16man, very stringent checks in 8man. Doesn't mean the fight was any harder, just that there were not more taxing 16man mechanics to make up for the lower DPS checks. Both modes of the fight are on the same difficulty, sometimes the fights are just tuned differently.
Ranick
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JDotter's Avatar


JDotter
07.31.2013 , 07:03 AM | #132
This should blow up soon.


/grabs popcorn

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
07.31.2013 , 07:15 AM | #133
No-one has cleared both 16M NiM and 8M NiM for either current instance, so it's all just hearsay and assumptions.

P.S. using HM TC/SV to somehow prove 8m is harder is as silly as using NiM Tanks/EC Kephess as proof 16m is harder. Past tiers are irrelevant.
Smugglin

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
07.31.2013 , 08:41 AM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
No-one has cleared both 16M NiM and 8M NiM for either current instance, so it's all just hearsay and assumptions.

P.S. using HM TC/SV to somehow prove 8m is harder is as silly as using NiM Tanks/EC Kephess as proof 16m is harder. Past tiers are irrelevant.
I believe some of your boys in SG did do a full clear 16m nmm tfb and also a 4/5 8m (they skikpped DG). . I tend to tease hippo whenever he logs in his imp alt which is a guild friend:. He gets pretty loud when he logs in to me saying '8m >16m easymode':P

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
07.31.2013 , 08:48 AM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
No, this is far from true. 16 man on some of these fights are ridiculous because of over tuning. Withering Horror, DG, Keph, TfB, Titan 6, and Trasher are all much harder in 16 man mode compared to 8 man mode. That is six bosses out of twelve in the two current ops that are more difficult in 16 man than 8. DPS check is lighter in 16 man mode, but mechanics hurt more, are buggy and tanks are always getting **** a metric ton of damage that range 75-125% more.
have you ever considered you guys are using the wrong setups in 16m? based on what I've seen it seems like 16m would benefit more from using a 3 tank setup for some of the fights. You certainly dont need the extra dpser in 16m as the dps req is extremely light. For fights where you don't need 3 tanks you could just have tank respec to dps. Honestly I look at the thrasher fight in 16m and I just wanna facepalm watching guilds skip the triple sniper nest. That can be defeated if you just coordinate better and use a 3rd tank. The snipers arent doing anymore dmg in 16m than they do in 8m it appears. I understand the dmg is high thats how its intended. Gotta suck it up like hte poor healers in 8m do.

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
07.31.2013 , 08:52 AM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
I believe some of your boys in SG did do a full clear 16m nmm tfb and also a 4/5 8m (they skikpped DG). . I tend to tease hippo whenever he logs in his imp alt which is a guild friend:. He gets pretty loud when he logs in to me saying '8m >16m easymode':P
Ah, as far as I knew we'd only done TWH and TFB on NiM (random alts and an incomplete 16m lockout). I could have missed it though.

(For what it's worth 8m The Terror is easier)
Smugglin

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
07.31.2013 , 12:59 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
Ah, as far as I knew we'd only done TWH and TFB on NiM (random alts and an incomplete 16m lockout). I could have missed it though.

(For what it's worth 8m The Terror is easier)
heh after seeing your first kill video and comparing I seriously doubt that. 3 deaths before tantrum, 2 deaths during tantrum, and still not hitting enrage? Can't get away with that sloppy play in 8m. Precision > coordination

ancksunamur's Avatar


ancksunamur
07.31.2013 , 01:07 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
No, this is far from true. 16 man on some of these fights are ridiculous because of over tuning. Withering Horror, DG, Keph, TfB, Titan 6, and Trasher are all much harder in 16 man mode compared to 8 man mode. That is six bosses out of twelve in the two current ops that are more difficult in 16 man than 8. DPS check is lighter in 16 man mode, but mechanics hurt more, are buggy and tanks are always getting **** a metric ton of damage that range 75-125% more.
Actually we found WH no different in difficulty, and believe I heard Severity gaming 15 manned it so I don't understand how thats harder. TFB wasn't any harder either. Perhaps some better min maxing, and refining your skills is all you need. I have honestly NEVER seen an enrage timer on any 16 man boss, then again we normally go in there a little better geared then our we do on our 9 mans.
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namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
07.31.2013 , 01:24 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
heh after seeing your first kill video and comparing I seriously doubt that. 3 deaths before tantrum, 2 deaths during tantrum, and still not hitting enrage? Can't get away with that sloppy play in 8m. Precision > coordination
That's the problem with judging off kill videos. The boss enrage timer was tighter on 8m, that's true. The healing was significantly harder on 16m throughout, though, and the tentacle enrages on the first phase were significantly harder to beat on 16m. Ultimately the second phase felt the same in both, the first was far more challenging in 16, and the final burn wasn't particularly difficult even with the boss enraged in 8man, although it was slightly more challenging than the 16m (un-enraged) version. Although, if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong even though I've actually done both there's no point in even talking about it.
Smugglin

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
07.31.2013 , 02:20 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
That's the problem with judging off kill videos. The boss enrage timer was tighter on 8m, that's true. The healing was significantly harder on 16m throughout, though, and the tentacle enrages on the first phase were significantly harder to beat on 16m. Ultimately the second phase felt the same in both, the first was far more challenging in 16, and the final burn wasn't particularly difficult even with the boss enraged in 8man, although it was slightly more challenging than the 16m (un-enraged) version. Although, if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong even though I've actually done both there's no point in even talking about it.
the tent enrage in phase 1 have the same timer from video comparisons. your tanks were only being hit for 1k-2k more hps by the tents but you have 2 more healers to compensate for that. P2 in 16m is signficantly easier from the looks of it especially since 3 people died during it and you were still able to complete it beating the enrage. I'm saying 8m is more difficult because it requires more precision, higher dps check, and there is no room for error. Obviously in 16m you can get away with multiple deaths and still leave it on cruise control to finish.