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Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.15.2013 , 04:46 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Except that being immune to physics isn't really a mechanic cheeser. The only mechanics that really matter are the massive damage ones. Getting to ignore physics doesn't measure up to being able to ignore Scream, Huge Grenade, and the like.
Exactly that.

As I said before, I don't think that the lack of a major cd on a powertech is a balance breaker issue, but nonetheless it is an issue, and at the same time while the other tanks do have a 100% dmg reduction ability on a short cd I do believe that powertechs should not have that but instead have something that improves *greatly* your survivability in a massive dmg situation, and I do think that this is even more needed now that powertechs are not the best passive mitigation in game, if they were I could undertand not having a great cd but right now we have another class with better passive mitigation, ridiculous cooldowns and one mechanic cheeser ability, this is a big unbalance.

And since shoulder cannon was mentioned, for me it is a very well thought skill but a bad implementation (and even worse for dps trees btw) since you have 2 bad options: You either use it every time it is available to make sure the cd keeps going and in doing so you will be getting heals when you don't really need while probably not having it when needed, or you load the 4 missiles and wait for a situation where you need it and spam it, problem is if you don't use them you end up loosing it (therefore having to spam them all just to not waste it) or even if you have to use it the cd only happens when you actually fire the missiles so you have less healing during the fight because you reduced the uptime on the missiles. Those problems make it a very unreliable skill, I personally use it always when available only making sure I don't overheal, I really think its easy to fix this by just either giving you the 4 missiles right away, removing the time on the missile buff so you can save the missiles without fear of loosing them after some time or putting the ability on cd as soon as you load the 4th missile and not after you fire it, either of the 3 options are simple and good fixes that could make shoulder cannon much better for tanks.
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
07.15.2013 , 11:35 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
Jugg – Endure Pain. Instant 15.2k heal. Refunds the health after 20 seconds (though it’s better to click it off when you’re good on health).
Endure Pain is not a heal at all so putting it in this category doesn't make sense. Now I realize you did so because you have nowhere to put it due to the way you've listed the defensive cooldowns. It being a temporary health increase doesn't make it work. If you want to put something here, put Enraged Defense since that's an actual heal.

Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
Jugg – Invincible. 40% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime.

Jugg – Saber Ward. 25% damage reduction to all Force/Tech attacks (Kinetic or Internal). Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime. Has 50% melee/defense chance increase tied to it.

Jugg – Total effect. Having 12 seconds of CD followed by 12 seconds of CD each on a 2.5 minute timer gives an uptime of 16%.

Notes: Sins and Powertechs are very similar in this department. They each have the same DR and same CD timer, and the longer effect on Energy Shield is balanced by the initial self heal for Sins. Juggs really pull away in this department by having 2 cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage. Even though the uptimes are 12.5% - 15% - 16% (more balanced than initial appearances) being able to activate a CD at 2 separate times is a strong advantage.
This is misleading because no decent tank uses Saber Ward for the damage reduction against Force/Tech attacks on the vast majority of fights. The melee/ranged defense boost is far more effective and is the main reason to use the skill. Unless you are fighting SoA or Kephess the Undying, the 25% damage reduction to Tech/Force is incidental at best and irrelevant for the most part.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.16.2013 , 12:01 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Endure Pain is not a heal at all so putting it in this category doesn't make sense. Now I realize you did so because you have nowhere to put it due to the way you've listed the defensive cooldowns. It being a temporary health increase doesn't make it work. If you want to put something here, put Enraged Defense since that's an actual heal.
First off, Enraged Defense is *not* a useful tank CD. It costs *way* too much Focus and demolishes your threat. It's pretty much entirely worthless for a tank.

Secondly, Enure fulfills the same *functionality niche* as Adrenaline Rush and the self heal on Battle Readiness: they both provide emergency hit points. Yes, said hit points only exist for a short period of time, but, when you consider the scenarios that you *need* emergency hit points for, you're not looking to achieve immortality; you're almost *always* looking to buy yourself a few extra seconds to get some heals thrown on you, which is exactly what Enure does. In fact, it does it better than any of the other similar CDs because it's a 30% cushion and can be used *proactively* or reactively, with no diminished effect either way.
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crazylegoman's Avatar


crazylegoman
07.16.2013 , 01:08 AM | #44
Now, I have no idea how good this idea actually is, but what the heck.

So, my idea is that when the PT/VG takes X amount of damage, say 1000 points of damage, it gives him a 1% Damage Reduction for, say, 20 seconds. This would be able to stack five times, and the effect couldn't occur more than once every ten seconds.

This would still keep VG/PTs as the "Smooth Damage Takers," and in effect, make them able to take more damage the more damage they take.

Feel free to tear this idea to pieces.
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
07.16.2013 , 02:22 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
First off, Enraged Defense is *not* a useful tank CD. It costs *way* too much Focus and demolishes your threat. It's pretty much entirely worthless for a tank.

Secondly, Enure fulfills the same *functionality niche* as Adrenaline Rush and the self heal on Battle Readiness: they both provide emergency hit points. Yes, said hit points only exist for a short period of time, but, when you consider the scenarios that you *need* emergency hit points for, you're not looking to achieve immortality; you're almost *always* looking to buy yourself a few extra seconds to get some heals thrown on you, which is exactly what Enure does. In fact, it does it better than any of the other similar CDs because it's a 30% cushion and can be used *proactively* or reactively, with no diminished effect either way.
Enraged Defense is definitely a useful tank CD whether you choose to believe it or not. The amount of focus needed is reasonable if it helps keep the tank alive and/or eases the difficulty on the healers without negating other active mitigation skills. Proper use in conjunction with other skills can make the threat loss into a non-issue.

Next, a skill that actually heals the player is fundamentally different than one provides a temporary boost that removes itself once it is done. I can guarantee the healer on the tank is aware of this fact since they still need to use their resources to heal up the Juggernaught tank after it is used while they do not with the other tanks.
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Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.16.2013 , 04:41 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Enraged Defense is definitely a useful tank CD whether you choose to believe it or not. The amount of focus needed is reasonable if it helps keep the tank alive and/or eases the difficulty on the healers without negating other active mitigation skills. Proper use in conjunction with other skills can make the threat loss into a non-issue.

Next, a skill that actually heals the player is fundamentally different than one provides a temporary boost that removes itself once it is done. I can guarantee the healer on the tank is aware of this fact since they still need to use their resources to heal up the Juggernaught tank after it is used while they do not with the other tanks.
Yeah but as a healer I would take the extra time to go back and heal when things are all good than just a little increase on the tank hp that still requires me to heal him right now.
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Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
07.16.2013 , 04:52 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
Enraged Defense is definitely a useful tank CD whether you choose to believe it or not. The amount of focus needed is reasonable if it helps keep the tank alive and/or eases the difficulty on the healers without negating other active mitigation skills. Proper use in conjunction with other skills can make the threat loss into a non-issue.

Next, a skill that actually heals the player is fundamentally different than one provides a temporary boost that removes itself once it is done. I can guarantee the healer on the tank is aware of this fact since they still need to use their resources to heal up the Juggernaught tank after it is used while they do not with the other tanks.
in tank eyes, that might be right. in few scenarios where boss will be forced to attack you instead of anyone else.
But 2 seconds after you use enraged defense, you lose aggro and he no longer hits you - no more heals from hits, and some one else is to heal (probably dps) who needs more healing then you. yes, taunt, another 6 seconds he's on you, a taunt that could be used on next target switch is blown cause tank decided to use enraged defense.
there are few places where you would turn it on just to neutralize one big hit incoming and then click it off, but reflect is much better for that.

by all means, it's a great utility - for dps jugg specced into it (both trees has their bonuses for it) and for tank being focused in PVP.

but that's off topic.
please give us atleast 6-8 % into shield chance... take the flamethower if you must... all that buffs to absorb are being not used with low shield chance
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TwoLekku's Avatar


TwoLekku
07.16.2013 , 11:07 AM | #48
What if we just buffed the existing Shield CD? Say, 50% damage reduction to all vs. the current 25%?
-Fits with the 'Shieldtech' theme of the Powertech (and VG, yes, sorry)
-Keeps with the theme of "we don't have an OH @$!% button but we take very smooth damage
-Keeps with the theme of "it's a fairly simple tank style and thus (rightfully?) lacks a pure shroud cheese mechanism"
-Simple to implement

I plucked 50% out of thin air. Insert whatever percentage makes sense. It would be nice to keep (or restore, after the warrior/guardian megabuff) the PT/VG "feel", i.e. has slightly less effective CD's because it's the least spiky tank. But otherwise, I like the central thrust of this thread. When they eventually fix shadow/sin dmg spike profiles to fit the new NiM content, the PT/VG goes right back to 'least viable endgame PVE tank' unless we receive either an additional CD or significant buffs to existing CD's.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.16.2013 , 11:58 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by TwoLekku View Post
What if we just buffed the existing Shield CD? Say, 50% damage reduction to all vs. the current 25%?
It would be massively borked because it lasts 18 seconds (+3 from set, +3 from AC passive) and it already provides 25% additive damage reduction. For K/E, this means that you're already taken less than half of the damage you would normally take while it's active. With your change, VGs would take *no* K/E damage for the entire duration since it would push their DR above 100% (it's ~51% already).

It also doesn't address the fact that VGs only have a CD up half as often as a Shadow (and even less than a Guardian, because Guardians are *totes* balanced). The need isn't for *stronger* CDs. It's for *more*, and, honestly, since Guardians got Saber Reflect, any tank that is incapable of cheesing at least a few spike mechanics is going to be sub-par which is why VGs need one. When Shadows were the only tank with a cheesing mechanism, it wasn't really required, but, now that Guardians have one as well, it's, honestly, something that should be standard across all tanks.
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Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
07.16.2013 , 03:17 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
in tank eyes, that might be right. in few scenarios where boss will be forced to attack you instead of anyone else.
But 2 seconds after you use enraged defense, you lose aggro and he no longer hits you - no more heals from hits, and some one else is to heal (probably dps) who needs more healing then you. yes, taunt, another 6 seconds he's on you, a taunt that could be used on next target switch is blown cause tank decided to use enraged defense.
there are few places where you would turn it on just to neutralize one big hit incoming and then click it off, but reflect is much better for that.

by all means, it's a great utility - for dps jugg specced into it (both trees has their bonuses for it) and for tank being focused in PVP.

but that's off topic.
please give us atleast 6-8 % into shield chance... take the flamethower if you must... all that buffs to absorb are being not used with low shield chance
All that stuff can happen if someone uses Enraged Defense incorrectly, but after getting practice on it, I've never had threat or rage issues with it. This is a guide I wrote on how to use Enraged Defense properly. Anyways, this topic is about PT/VGs so that's the end of my piece.
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