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Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.14.2013 , 02:44 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Yngow View Post
That would be good, specially because it gives 50% and not full resistance, but I'd like to see this happening in a different ability instead of riot gas/oil slick because you can use those 2 effects on very different situations, maybe hold the line/hydraulic or even create an additional ability
The reason why I say it should be on Riot Gas is because it's already on a 1 minute CD. HtL isn't a good option since it's only on a 30 sec CD which would allow it to be used *way* too often. Adding a new ability outright is a bit wonky since the idea behind VGs is to be simple.

Riot Gas only applies to M/R attacks (and actually benefits the other tanks or people that might catch cleaves). Adding the self 50% F/T resist would provide the needed benefits without requiring a lot of rework or borking things.
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Berjiz's Avatar


Berjiz
07.14.2013 , 04:41 PM | #32
What about knockback immunity for a few seconds as a 2-3 min cd? Unique utility that fits with PT/VG being stable and allows you to cheese some mechanics or just avoid some annoying knockbacks. Useful in both PvE and PvP.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.14.2013 , 08:36 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Berjiz View Post
What about knockback immunity for a few seconds as a 2-3 min cd?
They already have that. Hold the Line is a 30 sec CD that lasts 6 seconds and provides immunity to all physics effects and increases movement speed by 30%. It's an interesting capability that definitely makes VGs interesting, but it doesn't really increase their survivability since they'll still take whatever damage the attack dealt.
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Yngow's Avatar


Yngow
07.14.2013 , 10:47 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The reason why I say it should be on Riot Gas is because it's already on a 1 minute CD. HtL isn't a good option since it's only on a 30 sec CD which would allow it to be used *way* too often. Adding a new ability outright is a bit wonky since the idea behind VGs is to be simple.

Riot Gas only applies to M/R attacks (and actually benefits the other tanks or people that might catch cleaves). Adding the self 50% F/T resist would provide the needed benefits without requiring a lot of rework or borking things.
I don't know, if the idea was to make them simple they kinda screwed it by making juggs simple and pt more complicated.
I would not like to waste oil slick on situations like scream on tfb (I would avoid a chunk of dmg from it but would take no benefit from the usual oil slick effect) or huge grenade (same thing).
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wetslampigduex's Avatar


wetslampigduex
07.15.2013 , 08:55 AM | #35
What about adding a mechanic to hydraulic override in the tanking tree.. make it work like force shroud... for the first 3 seconds you would be immune to F/T attacks.. stick it on a 60-90 second CD


I just started playing my Jugg again since I was able to transfer it.... Saber Reflect is so OP its not even funny...as much as i'd like something like this for my PT I don't think its needed

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
07.15.2013 , 11:06 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by wetslampigduex View Post
What about adding a mechanic to hydraulic override in the tanking tree.. make it work like force shroud... for the first 3 seconds you would be immune to F/T attacks.. stick it on a 60-90 second CD


I just started playing my Jugg again since I was able to transfer it.... Saber Reflect is so OP its not even funny...as much as i'd like something like this for my PT I don't think its needed
As Kitru pointed out, you can't change the cooldown on HtL/Hydraulic Override without affecting ALL Troopers and Bounty Hunters.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.15.2013 , 11:11 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by wetslampigduex View Post
stick it on a 60-90 second CD
The problem is that this would require nerfing Hold the Line/Hydraulic Overrides. Having a talent that increases the CD while providing said buff would be potentially detrimental in some situations (like when you have lots of KB but not much F/T) and the entire point of the talents is that they have *no* detriments (every talent is an explicit buff).

This is the main reason why I'm not entirely fond of making the capability act as a rider on HtL: the CD is just too short to really make it work in a balanced manner. The closest I could see it getting would be a 50% resist *chance* so that it averages out to the same contribution but is weakened by the fact that it's not reliable. This, of course, makes it clash with the whole "VGs are reliable" thing so it's not really thematically appropriate. Any amount of multiplicative DR that would really be considered balanced and useful (I can pretty much guarantee you it won't be additive since the point is to make it effective against F/T, though it *could* be done as something like 25% I/E damage reduction without getting particularly borked since I/E is so comparatively rare and it's the *major* weakness of VGs that needs some level of address) would be too low to really make a difference. Even 25% would be a bit too high thanks to the uptime and low CD. The closest I could imagine would be 15-20%, which isn't really enough to do what is being asked for.

Now, there *is* one idea I had that could allow HtL to be the carrier of the ability without being borked though it's pretty wonky. Include a talent that provides HtL with 200% resist chance for the duration but, if you resist an attack while it's up, the CD is increased by 45 seconds (just once per CD). The one issue is that most physics effects are F/T in origin so using it for its *existing* purpose would, quite often, put it on a much longer CD anyways. Conversely, the CD could be left alone but resisting an attack while HtL is active could place a visible debuff on the user that prevents the rider ability that grants the resist chance from being applied for 60 seconds after (so it only works on F/T once every other time, if it actually *applies* to said F/T, but can be used for physics immunity/move speed every time).

Honestly, Riot Gas/Oil Slick really is the best option because it requires the least reworking to attach an F/T rider to. HtL requires either complicating the rider or screwing up the ability for everyone else. Simplicity means that it's much more likely to happen, though I admit that I do like that last idea for HtL that I had (resisting an attack while HtL is active prevents you from getting the resist benefits for 60 seconds) quite a lot: it'd probably be my *favorite* implementation.
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
07.15.2013 , 01:29 PM | #38
A debuff locking out just any talented buff from HtL would be an idea, but again the problem is what if you use HtL for one thing 5 seconds before your lockout expires and before you feel you need it for something else? You just effectively increased the lockout by 25 seconds.

Honestly wouldn't it be simplest to just give them another completely separate cooldown? Adding one ability isn't going to stop them from being the "simple" tank, and even if it did adding something as a rider on another ability, regardless of implementation, is only really going to complicate their decision trees and be less simple than simply adding another button to press. That may be more desirable, I don't know, but then the argument that adding a whole new ability ruins them as a "simple tank" kind of stops holding water.
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WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
07.15.2013 , 01:34 PM | #39
Said it at the start, will say it again. It seems people are asking not for a proper cooldown but a mechanic cheeser. We already have that in Hydraulic Overrides. Let's take an actual look at the current situation of tank cooldowns:

Self Heal:

Jugg – Endure Pain. Instant 15.2k heal. Refunds the health after 20 seconds (though it’s better to click it off when you’re good on health).

Sin – Overcharge Saber. Instant 5.7k heal. Causes Dark Charge to heal for roughly 60 HPS more than normal. Also has 25% DR tied in.

Powertech – Kolto Overload and Shoulder Cannon. Kolto Overload heals at 2800 HPS when under 30%, and 900 HPS when over 30%. That’s between 7.2k and 22.4k healing over 8 seconds. Shoulder Cannon heals 1900 HPS for 4 seconds, or 7.6k total. Active self healing can then range from 7k to 30k. Also has passive self healing when taking damage from AOE.

Notes: I argue with myself every day if Kolto Overload or Endure Pain is better. Kolto overload heals for a lot more, but Endure Pain wins against large spikes every time. Sins are definitely lagging in this department (looking only at the healing capabilities of the above, not any tied in DR).

Defense Chance:

Jugg – Saber Ward. 12 seconds of 50% defense chance increase, with the first 2-3 seconds being 100% defense chance. 2.5 minute CD gives it an uptime of 8% if used on cooldown. Also has a 25% damage reduction for Force/Tech attacks tied into it.

Sin – Deflection. 12 seconds of 50% defense chance increase. 2 minute CD gives it an uptime of 10%. Has no effect on Force/Tech attacks.

Powertech – Oil Slick. 17 seconds of 30% defense chance increase on targets in marked area. Raid members other than the PT tank can benefit from this effect. 1 minute CD gives an uptime of 28.3%. Has no effect on Force/Tech attacks.

Notes: Looking strictly at the above CD’s effects on Melee/Ranged damage we see good balance between the 3 tanks. Juggs and Sins are very similar, with Juggs getting a longer CD to penalize the 100% initial defense chance. Powertech’s have a smaller Defense Chance increase but this is balanced by Oil Slick having remarkable uptime, and the ability for Oil Slick to be used for the co-tank’s benefit (in fact, Oil Slick is the only CD you can pop for another tank).

Damage Reductions:

Jugg – Invincible. 40% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime.

Jugg – Saber Ward. 25% damage reduction to all Force/Tech attacks (Kinetic or Internal). Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime. Has 50% melee/defense chance increase tied to it.

Jugg – Total effect. Having 12 seconds of CD followed by 12 seconds of CD each on a 2.5 minute timer gives an uptime of 16%.

Sin – Overcharge Saber. 25% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 15 seconds on a 2 minute CD giving a 12.5% uptime. Has a 5.7k heal tied to it.
Powertech – Energy Shield. 25% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 18 seconds on a 2 minute CD, giving a 15% uptime.

Notes: Sins and Powertechs are very similar in this department. They each have the same DR and same CD timer, and the longer effect on Energy Shield is balanced by the initial self heal for Sins. Juggs really pull away in this department by having 2 cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage. Even though the uptimes are 12.5% - 15% - 16% (more balanced than initial appearances) being able to activate a CD at 2 separate times is a strong advantage.

I Win Buttons:

Jugg – Saber Reflect. 100% damage immunity to specific Ranged, Force, or Tech attacks. Lasts 5 seconds on a 1 minute CD giving an 8.3% uptime.

Sin – Force Shroud. 100% Resist chance to Force/Tech attacks. Last 5 seconds, and the cooldown is nominally 1 minute but can be reduced to around 45 seconds, giving an uptime between 8.3% and 11.1%.

Notes: Powertech’s aren’t on this list. There is nothing a PT can do to say “I win for the next 5 seconds.”
The asymmetries are that 1) Sins fall behind in the initial self heal department (other 2 tanks balanced here). 2) Juggs are far ahead in the long duration cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage (other 2 tanks balanced here). 3) Powertechs don’t have the “I win button” that has been a long time feature of Sin tanking and was handed to Juggs in 2.0.

How does all of that play out in practice? Well, for 1) it depends on the fight but Sins can cloak out of combat to reset their medpac (which PT and Jugg can’t) on the same cadence of Overcharge Saber. While not optimal, Overcharge Saber + Medpac can be simultaneously used for an 11k heal. That’s still behind Endure Pain, but it’s enough to eat another spike hit (remember you get the 25% DR too) and you don’t have to refund the HP. For 2) a small but incomplete balancing of having twice as many F/T Cd’s is that Juggs have the worst F/T mitigation. And for 3) Force Shroud and Saber Reflect are never actual guarantees of winning. Popping either on Writhing Horror will mitigate 1 out of 4 hits, and bad timing can actually cause 0 hits to be mitigated (the F/T hit is every 6 seconds). As far as using either to break mechanics, the Powertech’s counterpart is Hydraulic Overrides, which is a 6 second duration on a 30 second CD.

At this point with Jugg’s armor value encroaching on Powertech’s, and Juggs being a simpler class to play now (there I’ve said it, I can just do more with the PT, it isn't the simple tank anymore), the staple of Powertech’s should now be that they don’t need the “I win button.” I really like to think of Powertechs right now as riding a motorcycle without a helmet. You just look so much cooler while doing what everyone else can, often better. You just can’t crash.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.15.2013 , 01:51 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
Said it at the start, will say it again. It seems people are asking not for a proper cooldown but a mechanic cheeser. We already have that in Hydraulic Overrides.
Except that being immune to physics isn't really a mechanic cheeser. The only mechanics that really matter are the massive damage ones. Getting to ignore physics doesn't measure up to being able to ignore Scream, Huge Grenade, and the like.
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