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Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Desire to See a New PT/VG tank Cooldown

ScytheEleven's Avatar


ScytheEleven
06.22.2013 , 08:30 AM | #1
Let me clear some things up first:

1). Yes, Shadows are spike damage takers that will make your eyes pop. Should be fixed somehow, hopefully.
2). Yes, PT/VG's tank are the easiest tanks to play with the most basic of rotations. I do not deny that is part of their appeal.
3). Yes, not all the tanks should play identical to one another.

Ok, with all of that cleared up:

I really want to see PT/VG tanks get another cooldown to play around with. Saber Reflect and Force Shroud (don't know the pub side names) are, simply put, amazing. With the Jug's armor rating increased via skill tree and Crushing Blow, their damage profile is very similar to a PT/VG now. Not a bad thing by any means, but besides a shoulder cannon (which is cool, don't get me wrong), PT/VG's don't really have that one game-changing cool down.

I would love to see a one minute, 5-second lasting cooldown for the PT/VG tanks. Maybe something that increases their shield chance to 100% for five seconds, and boosts absorption to 75%.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.22.2013 , 11:44 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by ScytheEleven View Post
2). Yes, PT/VG's tank are the easiest tanks to play with the most basic of rotations. I do not deny that is part of their appeal.
Not actually all that true anymore. The Guardian changes made it so that the Guardian attack string has next to no real decision points. It can actually, very easily, just be considered an attack string rather than a priority. VGs at least have to deal with cooldown variability on 3 of their attacks (Stockstrike, Energy Blast, Pulse Cannon) and an, honestly, more complex resource model than Guardians do (as mentioned before, its an attack string that pretty much takes care of itself for neutrality).

Quote:
Not a bad thing by any means, but besides a shoulder cannon (which is cool, don't get me wrong), PT/VG's don't really have that one game-changing cool down...

...I would love to see a one minute, 5-second lasting cooldown for the PT/VG tanks. Maybe something that increases their shield chance to 100% for five seconds, and boosts absorption to 75%.
Should Cannon is less a survivability CD than an interesting little pseudo-self healing mechanism.. I also think you're downplaying the incredible contribution of Reactive Shield considering the level of VG DR and the sheer stability of it.

Of course, I've always been a strong proponent of giving VGs another tank CD, but I don't think that adding a new ability or providing it with some kind of universal utility (like increasing Shield chance to 100%; increasing Absorb by any more than they can already spike to with Energy Blast would just be *insanely overpowered* since it already spikes them up to ~70%; with a 100% Shield chance, they'd take next to no damage from anything except the very rare I/E damage *without getting any Absorb increase*; buffing their Absorb to any extent you would expect from a tank CD would make them functionally immune to all damage for the duration). Saber Reflect and Resilience are allowed to be as powerful as they are *because* they can only be used on *very specific* effects.

As such, for the utility, I would restrict the effects of it *exclusively* to F/T attacks: VGs already do very well against M/R attacks and the big "cheesing" capabilities are based off of avoiding F/T attacks. Previously I would have argued that it should be global, but Guardians getting something that pretty much matches Resilience (and, in some cases, most definitely exceeds it) kind of put the kibosh on the idea that Resilience was supposed to be a unique capability of Shadows, so I'm now arguing that all tanks should have some kind of Resilience-like capability for mitigating/avoiding F/T attacks.

For what ability to put it as a rider on, there are 2 excellent options.

Hold the Line is, thematically, an excellent option but the low CD and high uptime on the baseline ability represent some problems. The only real way to account for it would be to reduce the effectiveness of the ability and limit the duration or charges to prevent it from being able to be applied to drastically more effects that either of the others uptime. The only reasonably balanced implementation I could think of was having HtL apply a buff that increases Resistance chance by 50% (the unreliability of it makes up for the fact that it can be used for pretty much *every* F/T spike that ever comes along) for 3 seconds (shorter duration than the full 6 seconds of HtL to balance out uptime; it's slightly higher which is acceptable with a short duration like that). It does kind of clash with the whole "VGs are crazy reliable tanks!", but that design kind of got tossed a bit out the window when they became more reliant on Riot Gas, Defense rating, and variable uptimes and CDs on their abilities.

Riot Gas is another potential option that has the advantage of having the perfect CD as well as having a natural extension in the talent tree (just put in a new talent linked to Riot Gas and just swap Ceramic Plating from a 2/4% talent to a straight up 4% talent). Of course, you still have to deal with the amazing uptime of Riot Gas, which means that they benefit can't really be tied to the duration itself. There are 2 possible implementations that I can think of, the first of which is activating Riot Gas provides you with a 3 second buff that increases your F/T Resistance by 100% (i.e. Riot Gas provides you with the baseline effect of Resilience). The second option would be that activating Riot Gas provides you with 1-2 charges of a buff that increases Resistance by 100%. The charges are lost when you mean any of 2 conditions: you leave the area affected by Riot Gas (this also means that it ends when the Riot Gas area fades away) or you successfully resist an F/T attack. Call the talent something like "Dispersal Gas" (i.e there's something in the gas that disperses F/T attacks, such that they fizzle harmlessly rather than hurting you). It might even be interesting if activating Riot Gas applied the same effect to *you and all allies* in the area of the Riot Gas when you activated it (though you'd likely have to limit the charges to 1 per person and reduce the effect to something like 75% F/T damage reduction rather than 100% Resistance; of course, 100% Resistance to allies as well would provide VGs with some very interesting utility and strategic value to ops that they're largely missing now).

My favorite implementation is the Riot Gas one, mainly because it's more balanced and easier to understand, not to mention that it the charge based avoidance provides a nice big window to avoid a 1-2 big F/T attack which plays to the VG "easy to use" status. I also like the idea that it could provide VGs with some very nice group survivability (Shadows get the stealth rez and, debateably, Shadow's Shelter; Guardians get Guardianship; this would give Guardians a nice "raid umbrella" CD for big F/T attacks).
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Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
06.22.2013 , 12:07 PM | #3
My vote as well as they need another cooldown.

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
06.22.2013 , 12:36 PM | #4
I wouldn't turn down a new cooldown on my Powertech, just like I haven't complained about getting Saber Reflect on my Jugg. But, you're looking at the Powertech's suite of cooldowns and utility wrong. Saber Reflect and Force Shroud are primarily used for cheesing mechanics. Your counterpart for those as a Powertech tank is Hydraulic Overrides. Start looking to use that in clever places and you'll be suprised by what you can cheese.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.22.2013 , 02:24 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
Your counterpart for those as a Powertech tank is Hydraulic Overrides. Start looking to use that in clever places and you'll be suprised by what you can cheese.
HtL only lets you avoid KB and physics effects. While it's useful to avoid forced movement sometimes, it's not really anywhere near the same level of cheesing that Saber Reflect and Resilience are capable of since those are about ignoring huge incoming damage spikes.
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WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
06.22.2013 , 02:38 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
HtL only lets you avoid KB and physics effects. While it's useful to avoid forced movement sometimes, it's not really anywhere near the same level of cheesing that Saber Reflect and Resilience are capable of since those are about ignoring huge incoming damage spikes.
I'm still looking for mechanics to cheese with it since I've only recently realized its potential. The two I have figured out so far are for NIM Kephess, popping it while dropping the second purple circle on the last phase (old content, but still mechanically hard and on still being worked on by many guilds). The mechanic that really made me realize the potential of Hydraulic Overrides/HTL was popping it right before Styrak did his Force Pull. No knockback, no threat drop, no tank swap needed.
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TheRampage's Avatar


TheRampage
06.22.2013 , 04:47 PM | #7
Hold the line should be our best defensive cooldown. As name says - holding the line. Can be extremly short, but powerfull. Allowing as to go beyond the call of duty
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.22.2013 , 08:52 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
The mechanic that really made me realize the potential of Hydraulic Overrides/HTL was popping it right before Styrak did his Force Pull. No knockback, no threat drop, no tank swap needed.
That's not really all that valuable in my opinion. VGs have Storm so it's not like it would be a major concern for them anyway since they could just taunt and close the gap pretty much immediately. I can't really think of any movement mechanics that would really change anything major by cheesing them. HtL is *nice*, but I wouldn't say that it's really a game changer in any sense of the term.
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quirez's Avatar


quirez
06.26.2013 , 04:53 AM | #9
On powertech section forum some1 had the idea to give all PT's/VG's a passive energy rebounder skill and while it would be overpowered in the current state for shieldtechs - some kind of nerfed version might work quite well.

http://www.torhead.com/ability/4xbPTiS/energy-rebounder

maybe with a smaller chance of applying cd reduction (20, maybe 25% instead of 100%?) or make it that the effect occures every 6-9 seconds?

there definitely has to be a way to make it work

tho my personal favourite improvement would be a lower cooldown + 4rockets automatically loaded on shoulder cannon - this would make me more certain how to use it, most of the time i just keep it as an emergency heal mechanism and often end up not using it at all - which is such a waste
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Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
06.26.2013 , 07:55 AM | #10
well, oil slick is kinda like saber reflect... (60 sec cd)
reducing cd on shield/heal would also work
but yeah, some 2 cd minute shield +20% for 12 sec (it's a shield tech dammit) would be nice.

numbers can be different, so it won't be over powered compared to other tanks, math wizzards would figure it out.
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