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Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.17.2013 , 09:46 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
Also, read the "Contrasting Sidious and Vitiate" essay in this thread. It is very neutral and to the point.
Exactly, instead let's read the replies in this thread. People are painfully beginning to sound like the anti G-Canon crowd i.e. objective facts met with aggressive replies.

Let's not lower ourselves to their level, please.

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
06.17.2013 , 09:47 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
Hello S_W_LeGenD ,

First off , good read !
Second , it is refreshing to have read something different than a bash so and so KotoR or SWTOR thread .

Thirdly , you have made many mistakes.

You see to be one of the cool kids you have to
Hate everything KotoR
Turn to Rage whenever Revan's name is mentioned
* Down play all his Canons and achievements
* Hate Drew for Writing Revan into being

You have to utterly love KotoRII as a far superior game to KotoR and connect nothing to it being a sequel in its superiority.
* Believe that Meetra is a all seeing Jedi God that should have been the first Jedi or Sith to see their death ......
* Believe that Traya is a superior Strategist over Revan (See Revan vs Traya Thread)

I mean gesh , how dare you think out the box ! Now join the Cool kids !
Thanks for giving me a glimpse of prevailing mindset of fans of the Saga in this forum. Now I know what I should expect in my debates here to come across.

Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
Here I read this was a "Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)" about Vitate , little did I know this was a Revan Fanboi thread !!!!! Tricky Revan fans making threads about other characters in a secret plot to make Revan threads !!!!!
Exactly...

What I have written about him and how I have described him in this thread is absolutely his canon representation. But this thread isn't about Revan anyways.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well this is very interesting, because I never took much note of these quotes concerning Vitiate in the SWTOR Encyclopedia.

Regardless the fact remains that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history according to G-Canon. Now I'm not sure if a statement was ever made by George Lucas himself but I expect there was. Why? Because of the wealth of source books that state that this is the case. Sourcebooks which are defined as G-Canon. To quote a few:

Now you are probably thinking that this conflicts with the SWTOR Encyclopedia but it does not. Why? Time period. The context in which the statements about Vitiate being the most powerful Force user in history are set in the Old Republic era. Effectively meaning that Vitiate is the most powerful Force user in history up until this point. Likewise the statements above are made in the context of Sidious' time period, which comes after Vitiate's. This therefore means that Sidious canonically outranks Vitiate.
First of all, the key word in the accolade is "ever" and not "history." The word "ever" leaves room for creative liberties in the future content for a character in this position. Therefore, their is no right and wrong answer in this case.

Another point is that authors who write these books are aware of other books and what have been written in them or know about major canonical developments at minimum. They respect the continuity but they also have the option to exercise creative liberties when they feel necessary.

My perspective is that giving too much credence to outdated sources is not a good idea; I am not saying that canon information in old sources should be ignored (not at all) but latest developments should be kept in mind and assessment be made accordingly.

My intention here is not argue in favor of who should be the most powerful Sith Lord in the saga. I just brought a neutral and canonical perspective in to this discussion.

If somebody asks me that who will beat each other in single combat?

I would say that both Tenebrae and Sidious can win or loose depending upon various factors since both are canonically TOP-TIER Sith Lords.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
However, what is does mean is that Vitiate can hold a candle to Sidious and then some, which some people don't seem to want to believe. It also means that canonically Vitiate is more powerful than the likes of Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Nomi Sunrider, Thon etc. Which is very enlightening indeed.
Agreed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
P.S. I'm not going to pretend I read the whole thing, just the first post. Those block of texts... and I know the backstories of all these characters. So you'll have to forgive me.
Well take your time to read all of the information that I have offered. Do also read the essay part.

mefit's Avatar


mefit
06.17.2013 , 09:48 AM | #23
Sidious is the most powerful Sithlord in History for many reasons , this does not make Vitate weak by anymeans .

Sidious had intervention where is Vitate did not .
Sidious at a very young age like Vitate came into his power by himself . He killed his parents at a childs age and if it was not for Darth Plagius , who knows what Sidious would have done.
Where is Vitate did not have that till later in his life.

Sidious was no limited to Force Powers either , he was a very Skilled Lightsaber Duelest who did stand toe to toe with Mace and Yoda . Where Vitate has no skill we can see in Lightsaber Combat and almost totally relies on his Force Powers .

Sidious put himself in a spot that he himself could not see the events of his actions . He died early in his Empire but while he was in control , it was the most order that the Galaxy ever seen .

Vitate did have more issues that Sidious , but most Sithlords feared Vitate so he rarely if ever was challenged . Malgus being the only one who really believed the Emperor grown weak.

Sidious is likely the only thing in G-Canon that can be seen as a very Solid Fact . In lore Sidious had all the knowledge of past Sithlords to learn from , this would give him a upper hand . Sithlords felt passing down knowledge was a good thing which is utterly weird when you think of how selfish they are with Power .
Sidious being the only Sithlord to ever live that kept almost all his knowledge a secret and probably died with a bulk of it .

I will agree with you , to the point and likely far after Vitate died , he was likely the most powerful Sithlord .
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Inzuher's Avatar


Inzuher
06.17.2013 , 09:51 AM | #24
Nice to see that we have some logically thinking people around. Nice thread :-)
"I am that which grips the heart in fright, hearkens night, and silences the light.".

mefit's Avatar


mefit
06.17.2013 , 09:55 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
Thanks for giving me a glimpse of prevailing mindset of fans of the Saga in this forum. Now I know what I should expect in my debates here to come across.


Exactly...

What I have written about him and how I have described him in this thread is absolutely his canon representation. But this thread isn't about Revan anyways.
What I find funny is you are saying Vitate is the most powerful ever .............that would make him more powerful than Darth Revan ............and yet you are a Revan Fanboy for doing so...................strange thinking people have when filled with hate.............
Any Mention of Revan sends certain people into a Frenzy ................. I can just picture Wolverine going into blind Rage Mode saying """"RAWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRR REAVANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN"""" as he shreds everything in sight !






EDIT: Good thing we cannot post pics , I have a perfect Picture of Raging out that would fit the mindset of those who hate Revan ...........................I even have a Picture of a obesed fat man dressed like Revan that would make a good Revan Fanboi pic ! Too funny
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
06.17.2013 , 09:57 AM | #26
Though I will say drat, noticed in my thread some of the comic scans don't work anymore thanks to the site change. But the feats are still there anyway. But anyway was just to clear up anything, that someone might have said about Vitiate being the most powerful sith ever, I can agree he is the most powerful in this time seeing as everyone by comparison are a bunch of piss ants.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.17.2013 , 09:58 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
However, what is does mean is that Vitiate can hold a candle to Sidious and then some, which some people don't seem to want to believe. It also means that canonically Vitiate is more powerful than the likes of Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Nomi Sunrider, Thon etc. Which is very enlightening indeed.
It didn't change my opinion of Vitiate... But then, this is stuff I already knew.
Added Chapter 54 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.17.2013 , 10:02 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
First of all, the key word in the accolade is "ever" and not "history." The word "ever" leaves room for creative liberties in the future content for a character in this position. Therefore, their is no right and wrong answer in this case.

Another point is that authors who write these books are aware of other books and what have been written in them. They respect the continuity but they also have the option to exercise creative liberties when they feel necessary.

My perspective is that giving too much credence to outdated sources is not a good idea; I am not saying that canon information in old sources should be ignored (not at all) but latest developments should be kept under check and assessment be made accordingly.

My intention here is not argue in favor of who should be the most powerful Sith Lord in the saga. I just brought a neutral and canonical perspective in to this discussion.

I somebody asks me that who will beat each other in single combat?

I would say that both Tenebrae and Sidious can win or loose depending upon various factors since both are canonically TOP-TIER Sith Lords.
Ever, history? I see them as the same thing, because the books are written in such a context that 'history' only means up until the point that this book's context is i.e. the Old Republic era. But yes this is what I'm saying, there is a degree of flexibility because I could stick a character in-between Vitiate and Sidious and say he's more powerful than Vitiate, and stick a character after Sidious and say he's more powerful than both of them.

That said... this quote is rather interesting:

"The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see."

'Would ever' would imply now and into the future AKA including Sidious. However at the same time I'm not sure when they say 'dark side nexus' they are referring to Vitiate alone or Vitiate + 8,000 Sith Lords.

Else we have a conflict in canon. Hmm.

Oh and well done for this, unfortunately those who raise points of this kind usually do so in a subjective and immature manner, which doesn't do them any favours because it means canonical statements such as these have been overlooked.

On the other hand if I were to make a subjective choice, I'd choose Sidious. Firstly I think he should be the most powerful because, well, he's Emperor Palpatine. The pinnacle of the Rule of Two, the villain of all villains, the only Sith to succeed in conquering the galaxy and destroying the Jedi.

Also, his feats are that much more impressive. Especially Force storm which is effectively the most powerful dark side power in existence, something Vitiate could not perform. (Or at least we assume as he has not done it and would have come in handy for his plan to committ galaxy wide genocide.)

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
06.17.2013 , 10:08 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Nothing Vitiate has done compares to what Sidious has done. Get over it.
I respectfully disagree. Sidious's distinguishing factor is his ability to conjure up Force Storms after he transformed in to an immortal entity like being; he learned this secret but was able to utilize it after gaining immortality. Though he isn't the only one to have acquired this talent. It is unclear if Vitiate had acquired this talent but his knowledge of the dark side was so immense that he was in the position to make necessary arrangements to transform himself in to an omnipotent godlike being but he was stopped on time.

Vitiate and Sidious advanced in power in different ways and their talents diverge. However, they still have a lot in common.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Guys, why has this erupted into a flame war within 2 pages? Why can't we all be civil and discuss this like reasoned people? Like it or not the OP is using canon sources to back up his point, and he is not ramming home the idea that Vitiate is more powerful than Sidious and demanding you accept it.

He's not a Revan fanboy, well he might be but he's not coming across as a Revan fanboy. Revan after all can be described as 'mighty' and 'legendary'. He's already been described as legendary by a canon source book, and 'mighty' is a very subjective word. So lets lay of the hate when its undeserved. This thread has nothing to do with Revan.

I can't say I agree with everything the OP says, but I do respect the canon quotes for what they are - objective. And they should therefore be treated as such. So yes, lets just have a reasoned objective debate here. Thank you.

P.S. The majority of comments made in this thread are only fueling the stereotype that we are crazed Lucas fanatics etc. its not doing us any favours.
Thanks. Revan have been described as "mighty" in canon.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.17.2013 , 10:08 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Also, his feats are that much more impressive. Especially Force storm which is effectively the most powerful dark side power in existence, something Vitiate could not perform. (Or at least we assume as he has not done it and would have come in handy for his plan to committ galaxy wide genocide.)
The argument will be that Vitiate's story needs expanding. While true, we can't just claim him to be able to do something that he has shown no capability of doing (or at least to such a scale).
Added Chapter 54 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus