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Why there are a lack of tanks

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Why there are a lack of tanks

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
06.18.2013 , 02:37 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by TwoLekku View Post
Uhhh. Yeah.

First, it's not a start from scratch. Your operative friend either lets me start the party or I may just let him have his aggro for a bit...nothing like letting a dps have the aggro they want so desperately.

Second, there's this thing called 'guard'. It's not (usually) for the healer. So assuming I've figured out in the first 10 sec that your friend needs to be guarded, go ahead and slash that TPS number for me.

Third, there's this thing called 'taunt'.

Holding aggro against highly skilled dps is a pleasure. That's not the problem. The problem is what Kitru said - it's the neanderthal dps. Because with enough gear, any monkey can press buttons and feel like, wow, man, my damage is soooo gnarly, look at me...even if they're only scratching the surface of their potential. So they think they know what they're doing, and you start wiping because things like "kill order" and "cc" and "let the tank pull" and "when the trash are dead, hit what I'm hitting" are utterly foreign concepts, and you think the dps want to hear that it's their fault?

I don't need any more HM55 drops, as I'm full BM armor. And I don't need to take the 67.39% (super accurate number btw, i totally mathed it) chance that I'll tankpug a FP with at least one DerPS who doesn't know his job and yet doesn't want me to tell him his job.
Since you take Kitru's word as law, did you also know he said if you use taunt in you're rotation then you are doing it wrong as a tank?

TwoLekku's Avatar


TwoLekku
06.18.2013 , 03:01 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Since you take Kitru's word as law, did you also know he said if you use taunt in you're rotation then you are doing it wrong as a tank?
Kitru said
"Secondly, aggro in TOR is *incredibly* easy. Unless you're horribly overgeared and the DPS are using the wrong target priority or splitting their attention, no tanks should ever have to worry about threat. The threat multipliers on tank attacks (both the tank stance multiplier as well as the high threat multipliers) combined with the fact that taunts provides you with oodles of threat both mean that the threat "game" in TOR is incredibly simple. If you're complaining about threat, either you *and* your DPS have to be doing something *terribly* wrong."

Taunts provide you with oodles of threat. And I never said it was in my rotation; i said it was one of several tools available to easily hold aggro against even the best of dps.

Please don't invent things that I didn't say. It only reduces the quality of the debate.

I will say, though, that Kitru has provided the community with more invaluable work and information than I ever will. I'm grateful for their work and shared knowledge on a whole range of topics. That is not 'taking their word as law'; it is recognizing when someone has invested the time and effort to receive a great benefit of the doubt.

drtnap's Avatar


drtnap
06.18.2013 , 03:18 PM | #43
4k on a crit?
I crit for 9k on my commando with demo round.
Now you can guard me but who will guard the others.
Anybody with any kind of gear pulls on trash.
you are spewing nonsense.
nobody can hold aggro when the big boys crit.
Thats the way devs want it.
But the purpose of this thread was to discuss what is wrong with tanking that there are not enough folks that want to do it specifically in 55 hmfps.
you are not adding to that in any way.
I say its because tanking is not as much fun and feels underpowered.
Others say its because there is no reward due to low chance of tanking specific drops.
But most seem to say they have farmed enough comms to get 69 level gear then stopped.
But there should be more and new tanks behing them looking to get gear and comms and there dont seem to be.
There seems to be a finite number of players who want to tank in this game and that is what i feel indicates that there is a problem.
It has in my opinion and clearly in others opinions very limited appeal.
So what should be done within game to make tanking appealing to a wider audience?
Making loooove out of nothing at all!

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Kitru
06.18.2013 , 03:42 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Since you take Kitru's word as law, did you also know he said if you use taunt in you're rotation then you are doing it wrong as a tank?
If you *have* to use Taunt as part of your rotation, you're doing it wrong. If you're going to quote me, have the decency quote me correctly.
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TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
06.18.2013 , 08:42 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
If you *have* to use Taunt as part of your rotation, you're doing it wrong. If you're going to quote me, have the decency quote me correctly.
Sorry I'm not going to dig through so many post to find one quote. You seem to have gotten the idea though and what I said stands correct.

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TridusSWTOR
06.18.2013 , 08:44 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by TwoLekku View Post
Kitru said
"Secondly, aggro in TOR is *incredibly* easy. Unless you're horribly overgeared and the DPS are using the wrong target priority or splitting their attention, no tanks should ever have to worry about threat. The threat multipliers on tank attacks (both the tank stance multiplier as well as the high threat multipliers) combined with the fact that taunts provides you with oodles of threat both mean that the threat "game" in TOR is incredibly simple. If you're complaining about threat, either you *and* your DPS have to be doing something *terribly* wrong."

Taunts provide you with oodles of threat. And I never said it was in my rotation; i said it was one of several tools available to easily hold aggro against even the best of dps.

Please don't invent things that I didn't say. It only reduces the quality of the debate.

I will say, though, that Kitru has provided the community with more invaluable work and information than I ever will. I'm grateful for their work and shared knowledge on a whole range of topics. That is not 'taking their word as law'; it is recognizing when someone has invested the time and effort to receive a great benefit of the doubt.
What Kitru later on, is what I meant. Like I said, I'm not going to dig through post to find the exact quote. You understood the meaning though, which is the point. When did I ever say Kitru didn't offer great info?

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inknform
06.19.2013 , 07:35 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchArcher View Post
This is horrible tbh, as Kitru said, we as tanks have to place our trust to others so we can survive and yet if THE TANK fails (for a reason or the other) the whole group dies.
This is very true, but, OTOH, we as tanks need to be responsible for our own *supplemental* survival skills in the form of defensive CDs, stims, adrens, etc. I have no problem trusting my team, but at the same time, I want to be able to ease the burden by maximizing my own defenses in a timely fashion. But again, one of the many challenges tanks have that can make the class quite fun...

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Maelael
06.19.2013 , 09:41 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by drtnap View Post
So what should be done within game to make tanking appealing to a wider audience?
-Get rid of knockback so we can see a fight instead of a wall and a few polygons of the boss' face.
-Better gear drops/gear choices.

I did a few more 55HMs, looked at the time frame it would take to 69 out in a good spec (Of course, no set bonus!) lol'ed, and went back to pvping and playing other toons. That's one hell of an uninteresting grind.

To people complaining about not being able to hold aggro: I'm full B mods with all defensive specs. I've had DDs take damage/grab aggro twice on trash, never on bosses. Either its you, or it's the DDs misbehaving, nothing is wrong with the aggro mechanics.

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Kitru
06.19.2013 , 10:35 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Maelael View Post
-Get rid of knockback so we can see a fight instead of a wall and a few polygons of the boss' face.
I wouldn't say that they should get rid of knockbacks *entirely*. They force tanks to think strategically in order to avoid them. Vanguards have Hold the Line, which is a *great* way to get past the whole "wall of knockbacks at the start of the fight" problem, and Shadows have Resilience which works on a vast majority of similar effects. The only class that really gets screwed by those effects are Guardians (i.e. they have no real choice but to eat the effects), which could easily be fixed by providing Guardian tanks with a limited form of Unremitting (from Vigilance) that only provides interrupts/physics for ~3 seconds following a Force Leap while in Soresu Form. Toss it onto an existing talent like Courage, Beacon of Might, or Battlefield Command and you wouldn't even have to make space or change specs.

Quote:
-Better gear drops/gear choices.
The only real fix for drops tables, without pissing off everyone *except* for tanks, would be some kind of slight increase in the weight of tank gear compared to DPS/healer gear for specific classes such that the chances of getting something useful for a tank or a healer/DPS for a class is functionally even (easy way would be to just double the entries on the drop table for tank gear).

Barring that, it would be nice to be able to spend Elite Commendations (say, 100) on a box that provides a random role and class specific HM FP gear (so that Troopers can buy a "Trooper Drop Box" that provides a random piece of Black Market Mk-2 Trooper gear). This way, after running loads of FPs, you could at least guarantee a drop for your class, even if it's not specific to role to overcome the terrible state of commendations tank gear.
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Maelael
06.19.2013 , 02:14 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I wouldn't say that they should get rid of knockbacks *entirely*.
The knockbacks just happen too often is the issue - even with the skills that cancel it. A few other games I've played tanks in it was more about timing cancels, mitigations, and positioning the boss (or moving the boss) to deal with effects, dealing with buffs and debuffs, pull strategies and add strategies, and of course aggro management. I played a tank all day in a few of these gleefully for any group.

Shoving myself in a wall with the boss on top of me and playing the finger shuffle on skills is completely lame.

Sure, there are some bosses where it's not shoving myself in a wall, but the frequency of such is really annoying. Athiss is a great example. First boss is fun. Last boss is fun. Rest were relatively annoying due to the wall and entirely forgettable. I'd enjoy it if the fights were complex, but didn't require me being in a wall seeing nothing.

Put the knockbacks on trash mobs for complexity, not bosses.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The only real fix for drops tables.
Now my first MMO (if you really wanna think about it, THE first MMO) was EQ. I'm used to, and fine with the "Rarely ever drops" loot tables. However, to get gear that NOBODY in the instance can use, that you can't trade off for something you can use, or even to someone else not there that could use it, is really super lame.

The amount of time it takes to get the coms to upgrade is also off putting due to the weekly limit. I'd rather do...anything else than that (and it takes up so little time to hit max, but weeks to gear out). Essentially their loot tables/concept at end game really removed the loot motivator from the PvE game for tanks at least. Other games you could PvE your brains out as much as you wanted till you got you gear. This one, its do your dailies/weeklies and log off unless you have an alt. And since the elite com gear is spec'ed out like crap...