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Crit vs Power- The Winner?


Ryvirath's Avatar


Ryvirath
06.07.2013 , 08:33 PM | #1
So I was called a troll today for claiming that having zero crit was the ideal for an infiltration shadow and essentially told to put my money where my mouth was and parse it to prove it. This despite an inability of the power detractors to substantiate their magical 25% crit claims. So here it is, almost full min/maxed conqueror (full power) versus almost full min/maxed conqueror (sprinkle crit).

Stats are as follows:

Strength: 155
Endurance: 2619
Willpower: 2207
Expertise: 2018

Crit: 17.76% 0 Crit : 24.76% (380)
Power: 1444 Power: 1064
Surge: 432 (72.16%)
Accuracy: 0 (94.00%)
Alacrity: 192 (2.71%)

I did one shorter parse and two three minute parses for each itemization. Specs were the same. Links to the parse breakdown for crit. This one had 24.76% crit or 380 crit rating which is exactly 380 less power than the power build. It was directly one for one.

Parse 1- http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=crit3min1.txt

DPS- 2211

Parse 2- http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=...gcrit23min.txt

DPS- 2238

Parse 3- http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=shortcritparse.txt

DPS- 2401

Now add 380 power and drop 380 crit for the following.

Parse 1- http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=longparsepower.txt

DPS- 2313

Parse 2- http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=longparsepower2.txt

DPS- 2275

Parse 3- http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=shortpowerparse.txt

DPS- 2374

The data is clearly favoring power in sustained encounters by anywhere from 50-100 dps. It has significantly higher spikes than the crit parses reaching near 10k dps at certain points. Further crit burst tests revealed the strong dps on the short parse to be a bit of an anomaly, but I figured I'd post the highest one and the lowest power one. They are very comparable on the short burst phase parse though. Sustain and episodic spikes are where power clearly takes it away. This leads me to the conclusion that running any amount of crit is inferior to extra power in pvp.
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Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
06.07.2013 , 09:11 PM | #2
You set out on a quest to prove what you believed, but I still can't say I'm convinced. For one, you were pretty determined in power being the winner, so I can't say this is seemingly a fair conclusion. In parses done by other people, crit turns out to be the winner.

Your results, prove your findings you set out to prove. Hardly surprising.

If you really want to get into more detail, let's also count some major factors left out (PvP)
- Expertise
- Movement
- Kiting, Roots, Downtime

No worries though, I'll be doing my own parses too.

Edit: Oh, and Bolster.
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stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
06.07.2013 , 09:25 PM | #3
Oh so this is where. Humm i would like to add In pvp i've never seen a 1 v 1 last 2 - 3 minutes and burst wins in pvp as clearly shown. Power might get better on the longer parses due to being better in sustained. but burst? pffttt to you sir.
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Ryvirath's Avatar


Ryvirath
06.07.2013 , 09:28 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Xinika View Post

If you really want to get into more detail, let's also count some major factors left out (PvP)
- Expertise
- Movement
- Kiting, Roots, Downtime
Come on, you can't possibly have kept a straight face when you typed this nonsense unless you have some brilliant methodology for tying snares into crit. I would look forward to that, otherwise I can't say I'm surprised that the parses bore out my expectation. It would've been nice to be wrong because it would mean more optimization for me. Maybe you should be a little less hostile and a little more open minded.
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JiUasp's Avatar


JiUasp
06.07.2013 , 09:52 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
Come on, you can't possibly have kept a straight face when you typed this nonsense unless you have some brilliant methodology for tying snares into crit. I would look forward to that, otherwise I can't say I'm surprised that the parses bore out my expectation. It would've been nice to be wrong because it would mean more optimization for me. Maybe you should be a little less hostile and a little more open minded.
^This.
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Ryvirath's Avatar


Ryvirath
06.07.2013 , 09:53 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by stephenalandavie View Post
Oh so this is where. Humm i would like to add In pvp i've never seen a 1 v 1 last 2 - 3 minutes and burst wins in pvp as clearly shown. Power might get better on the longer parses due to being better in sustained. but burst? pffttt to you sir.
Actually this is not a correct analysis based on anything I posted. You can see the substantial dps spike increase on the power parses (characterized by large 6 second humps) where I popped force potency or reset the CD on force potency. The DPS for power during that phase is undeniably higher than its counterpart crit. This is what leads to my confusion with the desire for crit. If power is bursting higher (a good portion of that is on demand burst) and sustaining higher why would you want crit?

Edit: Looking forward to those parses.
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Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
06.07.2013 , 09:54 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
Come on, you can't possibly have kept a straight face when you typed this nonsense unless you have some brilliant methodology for tying snares into crit. I would look forward to that, otherwise I can't say I'm surprised that the parses bore out my expectation. It would've been nice to be wrong because it would mean more optimization for me. Maybe you should be a little less hostile and a little more open minded.
I was never hostile. I'm neutral. I'm all for being open minded. It's just... there are parses that speak otherwise to your results. So what exactly makes yours correct?

Also snares apply for the reason of IF that hit could've been a crit, or not, which it may have killed that person.
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Ryvirath's Avatar


Ryvirath
06.07.2013 , 10:06 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Xinika View Post
I was never hostile. I'm neutral. I'm all for being open minded. It's just... there are parses that speak otherwise to your results. So what exactly makes yours correct?

Oh really?


This simply isn't the case for maximum overall damage output. I've already tried low crit. It's good for seeing big numbers, but not consistency. You need crit if you are running Deception/Infiltration. 25% (Buffed) Is the prime number.

False, and this conversation is over. Go troll another thread.
FP = 60% Crit.

Edit: Another thing to note WHY Infi. Shadows need crit.

Surging Charge procs
45% Extra Shock / Extra Project
VS / CS (Which has nothing to do with FP)
Maul / SS (Nothing to do with FP)

Half the class is still Melee. The major 'hitter' comes from melee.


There's nothing more to say to someone who's determined to cause ruckus. It's very simple, setup a parse yourself and go test if you don't have the common sense to identify your own tree / abilities.
This is the gist of what you told me when I mentioned stacking full power to be superior. In what sense this could be considered neutral or open minded I don't know.

So I've now parsed it. Can you show me a link to a parse that performs at the same level? Because a random parse of a guy hitting 2k dps with full power and 2.2k dps with extra crit is hardly convincing stuff. I've clearly demonstrated neither of those numbers is acceptable for either stat allotment. Just let the snare thing go, you had a crazy idea and it stayed crazy.
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Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
06.07.2013 , 10:10 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
This is the gist of what you told me when I mentioned stacking full power to be superior. In what sense this could be considered neutral or open minded I don't know.
Since you want to link posts, I can too.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
Guess what class does have auto crits all the time from force potency. Shadow!
I had no idea 60%+ Crit = 100%. Also, does this apply to melee damage? If so, I must've been lost for a year.


Quote:
So I've now parsed it. Can you show me a link to a parse that performs at the same level? Because a random parse of a guy hitting 2k dps with full power and 2.2k dps with extra crit is hardly convincing stuff. I've clearly demonstrated neither of those numbers is acceptable for either stat allotment. Just let the snare thing go, you had a crazy idea and it stayed crazy.
And what makes you non-random? Nothing here proves your particular point superior in relation to other parses. It proves a point you set out to prove. Which, by the way, wasn't done in neutral flavor. So, how do we know that this wasn't sabotaged?

Not saying you did, just showing you the flaw in your own logic.


Edit: His original post to show his 'neutral' approach
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
There is no reason to take any crit at all whatsoever for any class. This applies doubly to the shadow which has on demand crits all the time. Not only is crit a loss of burst damage it averages out to be a loss in sustained damage. I would advise changing that for the people interested in min/maxing.
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JiUasp's Avatar


JiUasp
06.07.2013 , 10:10 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Xinika View Post
I was never hostile. I'm neutral. I'm all for being open minded. It's just... there are parses that speak otherwise to your results. So what exactly makes yours correct?

Also snares apply for the reason of IF that hit could've been a crit, or not, which it may have killed that person.
It may be time to put your numbers where your mouth is...
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