This fight just straight pisses me off as a shadow tank. It is damn near impossible to tank Thrasher on 16 man hard mode as a shadow/ssin tank. Anyone else having trouble with this? I've tanked him on 8 man hard mode several times and while yes I get hit hard........it's still very doable and 1 healer can keep me up. However, with 16 man it just does not seem very possible. He would hit me for 20-23k fairly often (swipe) and even with 2 healers on me, it would almost be inevitable that at some point my damage intake would spike too fast for them to keep up. My stats are: 25% defense, 35% DR, 34% shield (before KW), 43% absorb (I also use the proc Def relic). These stats are more than enough for anything 8 man hard mode and even the majority of the other bosses in 16 man hard mode but certainly not for Thrasher.

We eventually beat the boss by having a vanguard tank Thrasher (I was put on adds) and I will mention that this vanguard was significantly less geared than I am. Is this boss just simply NOT tankable by a shadow tank? Personally I think that's some BS and they need to FIX this so that a shadow has a chance to tank this without some sort of tank-swap being required or a vanguard/guardian tanking it instead.

Is this boss just simply NOT tankable by a shadow tank? Personally I think that's some BS and they need to FIX this so that a shadow has a chance to tank this without some sort of tank-swap being required or a vanguard/guardian tanking it instead.

Welcome to 2.0, where Shadows have amazing mitigation and spikiness so bad that it renders said mitigation almost completely redundant. This is just further evidence that the devs *really* needing to reevaluate Shadow tank to stabilize their incoming damage.

Hopefully they'll also learn that they need to use more than just Guardian tanks for their in house testing (cuz, you know, Guardians are the *only* tanks that exist), but, in my opinion, that's largely tangential to the larger problem of Shadow spikiness needing to be fixed *hard*. If you're curious, there's a thread discussing the possible solutions as well as demonstrating pretty damned well using math rather than anecdotal evidence that something is explicitly wrong (Shadows are ~50% spikier than Guards or VGs while having ~15% better average mitigation; you know it's wrong when the class with *better* mitigation is almost entirely incapable of tanking certain content).

I think you missed the point, I did not post this to argue whether shadow tanks as a whole are better/worse off than other tanks. The fact of the matter is that *geared* shadow tanks ARE viable for every other fight in this game. Even if the damage is a bit spikier than other tanks, healers are still able to keep them alive given that the tank isn't doing stupid crap with his cooldowns. The point of my post is that this fight *is* not possible on 16 man hard mode having a shadow tank it. Even spacing out my cooldowns the best that I can.....I get about 90 seconds into the fight before I've had to burn all 3 of my CD's. This leaves about a 30 second window where I hope and pray that luck goes our way and I can survive before battle readiness comes back up.......and almost everytime I do not.

Has anyone been able to do this with a shadow tanking it? We even tried tank-swapping when my cooldowns were down with another shadow tank who could burn his cooldowns and we STILL couldn't do it. And yet when we put a vanguard tank on it she was able to tank him the whole fight without a tank swap with WORSE GEAR. This fight NEEDS to be tweaked so that shadows are viable for it because as of right now, they are not.

This fight NEEDS to be tweaked so that shadows are viable for it because as of right now, they are not.

The problem is either with the class (spikiness exceeds acceptable levels) or it's with the content itself (hard spikes hit *way* too hard). The only way that the content is going to get fixed is if you can convince Jesse Sky to go through and rework the burst damage mechanisms he put in there (and, when I spoke with him, he didn't even have a clue that it even *occurred*, much less that it could be a problem; he was even remarkably blase about the entire issue just saying that it was a problem that should just be dealt with by the players; so I'm pretty sure *that* isn't going to happen, especially since it would involve reworking previous content and accepting specific design limitations for the future). Fixing the class *itself*, however, is both much more likely and more effective.

The issue is not that Shadows *cannot* tank the fight. The issue is that Shadows, even when they are better geared, in *any* burst damage situation, are at a *major* disadvantage compared to the other tanks. You even pointed it out yourself in saying that a VG in worse gear ended up tanking it more effectively than you did. That's not a problem with the content; that's a problem with the class itself operating completely outside of the designated capabilities that tanks are assumed to have. The burst damage is designed such that it will actually pressure VG and Guard tanks, and I expect content to continue to do so; it's an effective way to pressure tanks and healers without just having high damage over time. The problem is that the design itself, which is working as intended, *does not work* with the way Shadows operate. The content is working; Shadow tanks are not.

You're also misconstruing my point. There's a difference between "there's a problem" and "it's impossible". Shadow are capable of tanking any content out there. I know of Shadow tanks that *have* tanked 16m HM Thrasher. It's *possible*. The issue is that it is *substantially* harder for a Shadow tank to complete any content with heavy damage spikes, such that Shadow tanks are, explicitly, drastically sub-par. You mentioned it yourself. Your group had to bring in a worse geared VG because you, as a Shadow, weren't up to muster. I doubt it was a playstyle issue, since you specifically mention abusing your CDs and even rotating 2 Shadow tanks and it *still* wasn't enough. As such, if you can't get through a specific commonly repeated mechanic with 2 Shadow tanks (and it *is* commonly repeated since "damage spike" is a commonly used term that specifically references it; the issue is in the damage spike either having no effect upon 2 other classes or having an almost instantly fatal effect on the one), the flaws in the class are what's stopping you from completing it, not the content itself.

I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree and say that it seems like it would be easier to change ONE fight's mechanics than to change an entire class. By changing the class you open up a whole world of re-balancing issues and not just for PVE but PVP as well. What could be balanced PVE might completely unbalance things in PVP.

Even if shadow tanks are at a disadvantage in every fight because of the "spikiness", the gap between tanks is still small enough that the fights can still be completed. However, in 16 man thrasher HM the gap between tanks is HUGE. To the point to me that it seems impossible for a shadow tank. That's great that you know shadow tanks that have done it but it sounds like you have not so you don't know how extreme this gap is. I would like to hear from shadow tanks that have done this to see what exactly they did to stay alive, what kind of stats they have, and their thoughts on how ridiculous this fight is for shadow tanks.

He probably has, oh well back on topic. Gear doesn't really matter, your stats are fine although you want to lower your defence based on the % you gave, and lower it some more since you're using the defence proc relic. Biggest spikes you will see is 13k -> 24k -> 13k, it's basically a fight for the healers if shadows are tanking it. You want to make sure that it's clear who's tanking and that healers rotate cooldowns and don't overheal too much, if raid healers can help with a bubble then tell them to.

If you want usage of cooldowns I'm keeping deflection (50% defence) and overcharge saber (25% DR) for the sniper adds and rotate those two whenever I go up. Use everything else on Thrasher if you think you will die, if you can't help yourself using cooldowns you shouldn't then just don't look at your health, burning cooldowns at the start of the fight is NOT how you will succeed. There is a delay between the Swipe and the next attack and it's enough to heal you up as long as you were at full health before the Swipe. Not sure what the minimum health pool is to survive this, but don't go stacking endurance cause that's the bad way to "solve" the problem. Make sure to use Phase Walk to help the healers a bit and that's it. It's a shame that a lot of overhealing can happen here, and since the healing output of the healers is far greater than what's needed to survive the easy option is to put a Guardian/VG on the boss and the shadow on add duty.

I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree and say that it seems like it would be easier to change ONE fight's mechanics than to change an entire class. By changing the class you open up a whole world of re-balancing issues and not just for PVE but PVP as well. What could be balanced PVE might completely unbalance things in PVP.

That's a bit of a fallacious argument. The changes to the Guardian incoming damage profile didn't necessitate a complete reevaluation of their effectiveness overall and those were truly *massive* changes (going from moderate DR with heavy Defense to heavy DR with moderate Defense). If you even look at the general solutions recommended in the thread, you'd actually see that most of them would be implemented relatively easily and only really impact the incoming damage profile of a Shadow tank without affecting their mitigation in any other way. Incoming damage profiles aren't really a major issue in PvP since people prefer *reliable* mechanisms rather than variable ones (just look at the massive preference for auto-crits), and the best ideas in that thread, with the most math to support them, still preserve the fundamental aspects of Shadow tank spikiness (i.e. they should have more of it than anyone else) while smoothing it out so that it's not a crippling weakness. The PvE v. PvP argument doesn't really hold water because mitigation schemas apply to both.

The "ease" isn't a question of specific implementation. Specific implementation is comparatively easy from both sides: content can be fixed to be less spiky or the class can be fixed to not react as poorly to spikiness. They're *both* easy, from a direct implementation standpoint: either reduce the massive spikes and set a "cap" on out big individual hits can be during boss fights to prevent recursion or modify the distribution of Shadow tank stats to smooth out the profile.

The "ease" in in convincing the developers that the problem exists and that it should be addressed. The developers have *already* admitted *to my face* that spikiness for Shadow tanks is problematic; they simply don't have a reliable metric for spikiness so as to factor it in quantitatively rather than purely qualitatively. They've also admitted to me that they don't see the content itself as the problem (and this was from Jesse Sky who is actually the *lead content developer*). So, the developers *already* admit that spikiness is a problem for Shadow tanks, but they're not sure how to go about it without screwing things up (which is why we came up with reproduceable and reliable quantifications of spikiness and even experimented with possible solutions to arrive at the *best* option while still having plenty of others) while the developers *do not* think that the content design is problematic in the least. It's easier to convince the developers to solve the problem that they already think exists, especially when you're giving them the tools to solve it effectively, than it is to convince them that a problem exists in the first place.

and since the healing output of the healers is far greater than what's needed to survive the easy option is to put a Guardian/VG on the boss and the shadow on add duty.

thank you for the response, this is exactly what I was looking for here. There really isn't ANY other fight where it's so much easier to have a shadow not tank the boss.

Like I said before Kitru, I did not really post this to argue about whether or not shadow tanks need to be "fixed". Especially since we'd both probably be happy if they were to get buffed a bit. Really don't want this topic to get more off-topic than it already has

Have tanked it as a Shadow on 16HM a good few times now, It's a bit scetchy yea. Swipe has killed me a few times with big hits or atleast led to an impending death, but it only happens occasionally. I dunno how most tackle the fight but we send up 2 healers along with the dps on snipers and when Its my turn staying down and taunting the boss I stay quite near for a while so Im in range of all 4 healers. I suppose itsa little extra work for them but they like it

If they where gonna change anything, I guess it would be best overall to do something to lower the spike damage a bit on Shadow, not much just a little. Back up to 40% DR or sumthin.

The thing with swipe is theres no chance to react, it just happens, or atleast not that ive noticed yet.

Full 72's bis sin tank

This Fight Sucks For Sins I go on my jugg for this fight:D

I HATE THIS BOSS, our Jugg Tank had the boss 80% of the fight and i was the one to be knocked up everytime.

Stats: 55% Shield w/ DW, 43% Asborb, 34% Damage Reduc (no 4 piece set bonus), 23% Def

:mad::mad:

thank you for the response, this is exactly what I was looking for here. There really isn't ANY other fight where it's so much easier to have a shadow not tank the boss.

I'd like to add that "Don't tank the boss" is not a solution to "How should I tank this boss as a shadow/assassin?" Currently there is no way for the tank to make this fight easier for the healers, Swipe frequency is too high for cooldowns and only our 25% DR cooldown works against it, 50% defence is not an appropriate cooldown to try and survive Swipe and the chain afterwards. Is it fair that shadows/assassins require healers to work more or coordinate better for this fight? Probably not but thats how it is. Haven't died on this guy due to Swipe on 16 hard in the past three weeks so yes, it is possible but there's little you can do as a tank, it's down to the healers.

Fixing the difference in ease of healing between all three, or rather the two and the shadow/assassins tanks on this boss will have to come from the developer side. Whether that's making Swipe Internal damage, splitting it into multiple components to reduce frequency of a full hit, "fixing" shadow spikiness or changing the damage profile of Thrasher entirely is up to the devs. It's doubtful that it'll ever happen though, as explained by Kitru.

You realize there is a bugged "Debuff" that appears as "Buff" on your tank right? It is called Frenzy or something. This "buff" reads as if it increases your damage but in fact it s a Debuff the boss puts on the tank that increases the damage he takes. This debuff mechanic is used to force a tank swap.

Isnt that only applied when he knocks the tank up on the wall? ,which is when u Tank swap to stop him going all Roar crazy and the logical tank swap time anyway.

Or does it infact apply randomly? I could have sworn it was only after he knockup.

Part of the problem is some guilds don't tank swap, they just leave one tank on the ground the whole time and one tank up top the whole time.

To be perfectly honest, the fact that the mechanic can be ignored by 2/3 tanks either means the mechanic needs to be made harsher or that there is an issue with Shadow tanks. A mechanic that can be ignored by 1/3 tanks is preferable to a mechanic that only has to be followed by 1/3, would be nice if they shared the love a little more with the mechanic cheesing though. Shadows get pretty much all of the cheese and Guardians get a few. Meanwhile Vanguards just have to eat everything to the face.

To be perfectly honest, the fact that the mechanic can be ignored by 2/3 tanks either means the mechanic needs to be made harsher or that there is an issue with Shadow tanks. A mechanic that can be ignored by 1/3 tanks is preferable to a mechanic that only has to be followed by 1/3, would be nice if they shared the love a little more with the mechanic cheesing though. Shadows get pretty much all of the cheese and Guardians get a few. Meanwhile Vanguards just have to eat everything to the face.

That's just shadows having access to more means to cheese than others. Whether or not it's intented. A forced exit combat and a buff with a 100% resists chance will do that. And they can counter the Force Cloak like on Stormcaller. Guardians/VG's get access to a jump, a pull and the reflect. Loved those threads speculating that Saber Reflect + damage increase from Zorn debuff = dead Zorn when reflecting the instant kill.

The damage increase buff you see first on the boss after snipers spawn, he also does not do aoe frontal attack during this period, and when he knocks the tank it seems to transfer to the maintank only (melee dps going up do not get it) supposedly so you can tank the snipers and maintain easier aggro on them. I have not tested if it actually increases your damage, it might be a damage taken debuff.

I'm not sure if the mechanic can be ignore by shadows as well, technically it should be cause the conclusion is that it's broken if it does not kill or even endanger the other two tanks. And it should behave the same for shadows. I'm pretty sure that it's not this specific mechanic making the fight substantially more difficult for healers to heal for 1/3 of the tanks.

That's just shadows having access to more means to cheese than others. Whether or not it's intented. A forced exit combat and a buff with a 100% resists chance will do that. And they can counter the Force Cloak like on Stormcaller. Guardians/VG's get access to a jump, a pull and the reflect. Loved those threads speculating that Saber Reflect + damage increase from Zorn debuff = dead Zorn when reflecting the instant kill.

 

The damage increase buff you see first on the boss after snipers spawn, he also does not do aoe frontal attack during this period, and when he knocks the tank it seems to transfer to the maintank only (melee dps going up do not get it) supposedly so you can tank the snipers and maintain easier aggro on them. I have not tested if it actually increases your damage, it might be a damage taken debuff.

 

I'm not sure if the mechanic can be ignore by shadows as well, technically it should be cause the conclusion is that it's broken if it does not kill or even endanger the other two tanks. And it should behave the same for shadows. I'm pretty sure that it's not this specific mechanic making the fight substantially more difficult for healers to heal for 1/3 of the tanks.

The biggest issue for healers and Shadows is the 6.5k pre-mitigation DPS and the spiky nature of that. The other tanks still take a huge beating on this fight but if they fail to mitigate a couple of big hits they have 50%+ DR to fall back on while Shadows are only in the 30s.

Re. reflected damage and Saber Reflect, actually got around to testing it. It just reflects the reflected damage back and stops at that. Nice way to boost DPS but doesn't insta-kill them

Re. reflected damage and Saber Reflect, actually got around to testing it. It just reflects the reflected damage back and stops at that. Nice way to boost DPS but doesn't insta-kill them

It's too bad. :-) Saber Reflect + Force Sweep under purple Trando shield in EC Kephess NiM would be absolutely amazing if it kept reflecting and building until someone exploded. You would basically have 5 seconds to kill the Warrior, after which everything else would insta-die.