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pulling agro question in raids


AAAAzrael's Avatar


AAAAzrael
05.30.2013 , 10:40 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I What I am saying is that all tanks are capable of holding agro in the face of any burst, as long as they aren't under-geared to the point of hilarity. My cotank has a 66 hilt and holds agro in the face of unguarded DPS who burst 5k-6k and sustain over 2.8k. If he's able to pull that off in the gear he has, there's absolutely no excuse for a well-geared tank in any DPS group.
I usually to have no problems with aggro (except some trash fights but that is easily recovered usually - aggro dumps are really important there). On boss fights my opening rotation is exactly the same as you posted. But with my 66 hilt I sometimes run into problems with one guardian DPS and one gunslinger I do ops with. I know the guardian does a bit over 2.8k DPS on the dummy. I tend to think it may be just gear issue. Of course it can just be used as opportunity to build more threat and if they pull on particular fight consistently I will just let them and re-taunt when boss changes targets (some bosses are a bit slow about it).
On the other hand I joined other guild's run into TFB HM yesterday as they were short one tank. Their main tank was a shadow with full underworld/verpine gear (72 MH and OH) and he lost aggro more times I can count during that run even though we cleared bosses without much problem. So it definately is skill/rotation dependent far more then gear as I didn't have that much problem with aggro in the same group.
From PUG runs I took part in and stuff like that I can also say the problem can be caused by DPS actually attacking before the tank, then the tank HAS to taunt and if he cannot use AOE taunt for some reason later it can get tricky.

To the author of the thread I'd say just ask some other tank to run with you once and check if problem persists. There are a lot of experienced raiders out there who have ALT's or couldn't run particular week with their guilds. At least on my server there are quite a few.

deceptweb's Avatar


deceptweb
05.30.2013 , 10:49 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
  • Pull: 8592 threat
  • Slow Time: 7k threat
  • Project: 5k threat
  • Force Breach: 5k threat
  • Taunt: 7.65k threat
  • Double Strike: 3k threat
  • Shadow Strike: 4k threat
  • Project crit: 6.5k threat
  • FP + Telekinetic Throw: 14k threat
  • AoE Taunt: 18.195k threat

Total threat: 78845. Total time: 13.5 seconds. TPS = 5840
Are you trying to say that your AoE taunt causes 18.195k threat?
Thinmints - GM of Severity Gaming
16M NiM TFB and SV World First
Twitch Account

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.30.2013 , 10:49 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
Your DPS numbers are low in comparison to what "Elite DPS" do. Go look at torparse.
I've spent a very significant amount of time researching and watching the DPS numbers in the game right now. 2.8k is excellent. There are some classes doing a lot more (e.g. 3k+ parses from some gunslingers), and there are a few classes doing less, but 2.8-2.9k is about the range of geared, competent DPS in the current game.

And yes, I've looked at Severity Gaming DPS on torparse. You do not have a full DPS group doing 3k. As far as I can tell, if you guard your highest DPS, then 2.8k average with 5k-ish burst is the worst you have to deal with from your unguarded raiders.

Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
Also solely looking at time to kill as a tank isn't the end all be all solution. Being a truly great tank is about minimizing the amount of damage you take but also about being able to be reliably healed, aka removing as much spikiness as possible. With the bonus' to shield/absorb you receive as a vanguard to completely ignore absorb and stack defense is asinine.
Read the tree. Vanguards get an enormous boost to defense. Furthermore, defense has a much more lenient rate of return than it has in the past, relative to shield/absorb. That is why it is such a priority for vanguards until the Underworld tier. The Vanguard bonuses to shield/absorb aren't what they used to be, and are generally quite overrated. They're good, but the shadow bonuses are far superior (which is why shadows start valuing shield/absorb at a much lower stat budget than vanguards do).

As for defense, it doesn't make you as spiky as you seem to think. Defense doesn't behave quite the same as dodge in most MMOs. The reason for this comes down to content design: nearly all "big" physical attacks are split into multiple hidden components, which smooths out the RNG for defense. In other words, defense is not the "all or nothing" stat that it would initially seem to be. If it were, then guardians would be completely unhealable.

Ignoring defense in favor of shield/absorb is gimping your mitigation by a VERY significant margin. That's your choice, and if you really want to play the game in that way I have no objections, but dispel any illusions you have that it is optimal in any sense of the word.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.30.2013 , 10:50 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
Are you trying to say that your AoE taunt causes 18.195k threat?
It does. Add up the threat that I have at that point and then multiply by 0.3 (assuming an average boss, where you're actually standing outside of "melee range" as defined by the game engine). That is the threat granted by the AoE taunt.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

deceptweb's Avatar


deceptweb
05.30.2013 , 11:01 AM | #25
Since when does a taunt generate threat? The taunt itself does the following:

When not being targeted:
Puts you on top of the threat meter and forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds

When being targeted:
Forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds

If you look at a combat log and see threat gained, it's due to being put on top of the highest threat. Not due to the ability causing the threat.
Thinmints - GM of Severity Gaming
16M NiM TFB and SV World First
Twitch Account

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.30.2013 , 11:09 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
Since when does a taunt generate threat? The taunt itself does the following:

When not being targeted:
Puts you on top of the threat meter and forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds

When being targeted:
Forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds

If you look at a combat log and see threat gained, it's due to being put on top of the highest threat. Not due to the ability causing the threat.
Taunt has always generated threat (source). Have a random log entry (source):

Quote:
19:00:19.758 Tam's Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.
19:00:19.758 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 6218 threat.
I had agro at that moment (note that Dash'roode was hitting me less than a second previous to that instant), but Taunt still gave me a chunk of threat. We see the same thing later on:

Quote:
19:00:59.083 Tam's Mass Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.
19:00:59.083 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 51130 threat.
You can't tell me that someone was ahead of me on the threat table by 51 thousand.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

deceptweb's Avatar


deceptweb
05.30.2013 , 11:19 AM | #27
You are posting a part of your log where I have no frame of reference of what was happening in the fight. If that was you taunting dash off the other tank, of course it would give you that much threat.
Thinmints - GM of Severity Gaming
16M NiM TFB and SV World First
Twitch Account

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.30.2013 , 11:23 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
You are posting a part of your log where I have no frame of reference of what was happening in the fight. If that was you taunting dash off the other tank, of course it would give you that much threat.
I gave you the full log (it's that fancy "source" link). Dash'roode was attacking me just prior to the Mass Mind Control, so clearly I wasn't taunting off the other tank.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

deceptweb's Avatar


deceptweb
05.30.2013 , 11:25 AM | #29
I just did a dummy test, and I withdraw my previous statement your taunt does put you ahead of the top threat holder by 10% even if that threat holder is you.
Thinmints - GM of Severity Gaming
16M NiM TFB and SV World First
Twitch Account

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.30.2013 , 11:26 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
I just did a dummy test, and I withdraw my previous statement your taunt does put you ahead of the top threat holder by 10% even if that threat holder is you.
Yeah, it's 10% if you're within 4 meters of the center of the target. The reason I use 30% is that whole "center of the target" qualification. Most bosses have hitboxes which are larger than 4 meters, so you would have to be standing *inside* the boss to fall afoul of the 4 meter radius.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)