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pulling agro question in raids


TeH-DeVa's Avatar


TeH-DeVa
05.29.2013 , 02:32 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post

My guess is that the problem is your confusion between randomly targeted attacks and aggro loss. There are some attacks that are designed specifically that, regardless of the current aggro state (i.e. whether they've got the taunt debuff on 'em or are just targeting you naturally), they'll either swap targets or outright attack someone completely different. They're a natural part of raiding. If the boss is behaving in a manner that absolutely perplexes you from a threat standpoint, it's generally a randomly targeted attack. I know for a fact that Golden Fury has a randomly targeted attack in Satellite Strike.

As to the cleaves, on HM GF, the damage the Fury deals is so high you pretty much have to have the Isotope-5 buff to tank them effectively even as a tank when you're packing more mitigation than any DPS could ever hope to achieve in their lifetimes. If your DPS are standing in the cleave area, they're gonna get *rocked*. Hard. Even a single cleave is gonna make 'em have a bad day.
We know about cleaves and random switches. Golden Fury switching to me and almost one shotting me for about 25k 6 seconds into the boss fight i don't think is a random switch mechanic. We never stand in cleaves either.

But it seems the others answered it being that we are starting off too strong. We normally pop relics, adrenals, and blood thirst at the beginning to try and get a good first burst. It appears that seems to be a bad idea.

Thank you for the information!
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.29.2013 , 02:58 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by TeH-DeVa View Post
We know about cleaves and random switches. Golden Fury switching to me and almost one shotting me for about 25k 6 seconds into the boss fight i don't think is a random switch mechanic. We never stand in cleaves either.
That's definitely fail tanking then. Your tanks *can* fix it, you just need to work with them a bit to tighten their rotation. I find (as a tank) that my threat was helped IMMENSELY (~20%) by rolling a DPS class. Just getting into the "maximum GCD usage" mindset really helps a lot. Also, I know the burst timings of all of the DPS classes, which helps me finesse my taunt timings depending on group composition.

Quote: Originally Posted by TeH-DeVa View Post
But it seems the others answered it being that we are starting off too strong. We normally pop relics, adrenals, and blood thirst at the beginning to try and get a good first burst. It appears that seems to be a bad idea.
Honestly, I keep coming back to the fact that it's the tank's *job* to keep the boss off of you, even in the face of a really hard-hitting opening. Because of CD timing and differing rotation cycles, if you *don't* pop Bloodthirst+relics+adrenals+CDs early, then you're nerfing their net effectiveness by a LOT. It's not like you can just delay it and get the same effect. Obviously, if you guys are clearing the enrage with ease, then holding back might be the easy way to fix the problem, but if it were me, I'd slap your tanks around a bit. :-) (this coming from someone who mains a tank) It's better in the long-run too, since it forces your tanks to learn from the problem rather than shuffling it under the carpet.
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Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.29.2013 , 03:21 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by TeH-DeVa View Post
We know about cleaves and random switches. Golden Fury switching to me and almost one shotting me for about 25k 6 seconds into the boss fight i don't think is a random switch mechanic. We never stand in cleaves either.

But it seems the others answered it being that we are starting off too strong. We normally pop relics, adrenals, and blood thirst at the beginning to try and get a good first burst. It appears that seems to be a bad idea.

Thank you for the information!
You may want to get creative with your threat drops and Taunts if your tanks are still having an issue. I can spike my dps up into the 5-6k range on an initial pull. As a result I can guarantee threat from the boss no matter what. In this case, a good thing to do is to have the tank watch the "Target of Target" (If he doesn't know what that is, he should be flogged). Once I pull, the tank taunts. I wait to see the taunt buff/animation and then put my threat drop in. What happens is the tank gets the threat I generated and adds on more to that, I then reduce my personal threat which will in turn widen the gap between the tanks threat and my own. Typically I will use my aggro dump after this once more and should NEVER have a problem again. If I do, I know the tank just can't tank.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.29.2013 , 03:29 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
You may want to get creative with your threat drops and Taunts if your tanks are still having an issue. I can spike my dps up into the 5-6k range on an initial pull. As a result I can guarantee threat from the boss no matter what. In this case, a good thing to do is to have the tank watch the "Target of Target" (If he doesn't know what that is, he should be flogged). Once I pull, the tank taunts. I wait to see the taunt buff/animation and then put my threat drop in. What happens is the tank gets the threat I generated and adds on more to that, I then reduce my personal threat which will in turn widen the gap between the tanks threat and my own. Typically I will use my aggro dump after this once more and should NEVER have a problem again. If I do, I know the tank just can't tank.
Agro dumping immediately *after* the taunt is definitely ideal. Most DPS (and tanks) miss this subtlety. As for initial TPS…
  • Pull: 8592 threat
  • Slow Time: 7k threat
  • Project: 5k threat
  • Force Breach: 5k threat
  • Taunt: 7.65k threat
  • Double Strike: 3k threat
  • Shadow Strike: 4k threat
  • Project crit: 6.5k threat
  • FP + Telekinetic Throw: 14k threat
  • AoE Taunt: 18.195k threat

Total threat: 78845. Total time: 13.5 seconds. TPS = 5840

Note that the majority of that 15 second interval is also debuffed such that a DPS *cannot* pull, and if they somehow manage to put off more threat than the tank early on, then the taunt will give even more threat than it otherwise would have (the above chain is a minimum).

In other words, I think your tanks are fail, Fenrir. :-) I have absolutely no doubt that you can put up the numbers you listed, but a good tank is going to be able to keep ahead of even that monstrously high burst (and it's *easy mode* if they guard you).
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.29.2013 , 04:04 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Note that the majority of that 15 second interval is also debuffed such that a DPS *cannot* pull, and if they somehow manage to put off more threat than the tank early on, then the taunt will give even more threat than it otherwise would have (the above chain is a minimum).
My threat opening is a bit wonky since I focus on trying to get my first TkT in as soon as possible. TkT is pretty much the point where no DPS is *ever* going to pull off of me, so I race to it as soon as possible:

Pull>Proj>ST>FB>Proj>TkT

I don't even bother to use taunt at any point in that and never have *any* threat problems. Going by your own numbers (my gear loadout is a bit more focused on threat generation than yours so I'll be higher; my guess is by ~5-10%), that 10.5 sec chain right there will generate 44.5k threat (8.5 + 5 + 7 + 5 + 5 + 14), and that's discounting threat generation from self healing (which should add another ~3k). With that, DPS have to exceed 6k DPS on their opening to pull threat off of me and that's without me ever having to taunt fluff.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.29.2013 , 04:41 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
My threat opening is a bit wonky since I focus on trying to get my first TkT in as soon as possible. TkT is pretty much the point where no DPS is *ever* going to pull off of me, so I race to it as soon as possible:

Pull>Proj>ST>FB>Proj>TkT

I don't even bother to use taunt at any point in that and never have *any* threat problems. Going by your own numbers (my gear loadout is a bit more focused on threat generation than yours so I'll be higher; my guess is by ~5-10%), that 10.5 sec chain right there will generate 44.5k threat (8.5 + 5 + 7 + 5 + 5 + 14), and that's discounting threat generation from self healing (which should add another ~3k). With that, DPS have to exceed 6k DPS on their opening to pull threat off of me and that's without me ever having to taunt fluff.
Going for Project first absolutely gets you your TkT sooner. The danger is that you have slightly lower snap threat. Whether or not this is an issue depends on the DPS you run with. I run with a Focus sentinel who will be hitting an 8k Force Sweep in the second GCD, followed by a 2+3+5=10k Master Strike and a 4k Blade Storm in the second, third and fourth GCDs (and that's assuming no crits). That's 22k damage in 6 seconds, or 3.6k DPS. That's well below your threshold, but they're hitting it much sooner than you expected. Weighing this against your opener:

Pull (8.5k) vs Leap (2k)
Project (5k) vs Force Sweep (8k)
Slow Time (7k) vs Master Strike (5k)
Force Breach (5k) vs Master Strike (5k)
Double Strike (3k) vs Blade Storm (4k) (you forgot to include this GCD, which you need due to Proj CD)
-----
28.5k vs 24k

Thus, said sentinel is just 7.35k off of the threshold where they rip agro. All that they need is a crit on two ticks of Master Strike and they have the boss. Taunting following Force Breach helps, but you have to be pretty quick about it. There might be a partial GCD in which agro is taken by the last tick of Master Strike and has yet to be restored by the taunt. It depends a bit on your own crits weighed against the roll which determines Force Sweep's base damage.

And that's a Focus sentinel. Combat has an even harder-hitting opening (their final Master Strike tick is 7.5k *without* critting):

Pull (8.5k) vs Leap (2k)
Project (5k) vs Precision Slash (2k) + Master Strike (7k)
Slow Time (7k) vs Master Strike (8k)
Force Breach (5k) vs Precision Slash (2k) + Dispatch (5k)
Double Strike (3k) vs Blade Rush (3k) + Blade Storm (8k) <---- due to faster GCD from Zen

That puts the combat sentinel at 37k, or 4.9k TPS. The threshold for agro rip from your rotation is 31.35k, which means the agro war is lost even without the combat sentinel needing to crit.

This is why I taunt. :-) Guarding would also resolve the issue, giving the sentinel just 27.75k threat, but if they get lucky on their crits, they're back to facetanking.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

TrooperSev's Avatar


TrooperSev
05.30.2013 , 01:28 AM | #17
Something that's kinda bugging me. Why the difference in aggro pulling only on hms? Doesn't make sense. It's not easier to tank bosses in sm so what are you're dps doing different?
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deceptweb's Avatar


deceptweb
05.30.2013 , 09:06 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post

In other words, I think your tanks are fail, Fenrir. :-) I have absolutely no doubt that you can put up the numbers you listed, but a good tank is going to be able to keep ahead of even that monstrously high burst (and it's *easy mode* if they guard you).
LOL... Or maybe you just play with a fail group of players, when grim says lose aggro he doesn't mean the boss turns and attacks him, he means it targets him and then it immediately gets taunted back, I don't know what guild you're in or what you're level of experience is, but my guild has at least 6 of our 10 dps that can pull that 5-6k burst dps. There aren't 6 guards that can go out in 16 man, but you're obviously all knowing, I mean you told Vanguards to all stack defense because the numbers support it.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.30.2013 , 10:08 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
LOL... Or maybe you just play with a fail group of players, when grim says lose aggro he doesn't mean the boss turns and attacks him, he means it targets him and then it immediately gets taunted back, I don't know what guild you're in or what you're level of experience is, but my guild has at least 6 of our 10 dps that can pull that 5-6k burst dps.
If the boss turns and targets grim, it's fail tanking. Full stop. I am not, under any circumstances, challenging the caliber of your DPS. I run with some extremely good DPS, and I know what is possible in terms of burst threat and unrelenting sustained damage. What I am saying is that all tanks are capable of holding agro in the face of any burst, as long as they aren't under-geared to the point of hilarity. My cotank has a 66 hilt and holds agro in the face of unguarded DPS who burst 5k-6k and sustain over 2.8k. If he's able to pull that off in the gear he has, there's absolutely no excuse for a well-geared tank in any DPS group.

Quote: Originally Posted by deceptweb View Post
There aren't 6 guards that can go out in 16 man, but you're obviously all knowing, I mean you told Vanguards to all stack defense because the numbers support it.
Vanguards have been rebalanced, as have all the tanks in the game. I can walk you through exactly *why* the numbers say what they say, and why it's valid. Holding onto pre-2.0 gearing philosophies does not demonstrate your level of elite-ness; it demonstrates that you're blind to evidence.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

deceptweb's Avatar


deceptweb
05.30.2013 , 10:34 AM | #20
Your DPS numbers are low in comparison to what "Elite DPS" do. Go look at torparse. Also solely looking at time to kill as a tank isn't the end all be all solution. Being a truly great tank is about minimizing the amount of damage you take but also about being able to be reliably healed, aka removing as much spikiness as possible. With the bonus' to shield/absorb you receive as a vanguard to completely ignore absorb and stack defense is asinine.
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