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pulling agro question in raids


Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
06.05.2013 , 09:43 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Lutese View Post

The whole argument that "DPS can out threat a tank" is hogwash. Any and all who say such things obviously do not have a basic grasp on how threat works, and/or how to apply such information to the game.
First off, thanks for those posts. Clears things up a tad (vs just hearsay).

I agree that later on in a fight, a dps can not outclass a tank unless the tank is bad. However, we are discussing the initial pull here. If you assume that the tank is not taunting off the dps and taking their threat in the beginning (since according to KBN, a good tank will never have the ToT switch off of him), the tank can and in about half the cases be helpless to the dps pulling off of him.

The simple fix if to have your taunt ready and use it at that point (Hence the Pull --> Taunt --> Drop method I put forth in the beginning). The point of this is that following a "max threat" rotation for a tank on a pull will not guarantee they never loose threat. The safer and more consistent method is Pull --> Taunt --> Drop.

This method is the method the OP needs to employ. He should employ it for the simple fact that he has to come here to ask for help (Not enough experience in troubleshooting scenarios). Instead of giving him a "this will work 50% or 75% of the time" answer I chose to give him the most reliable one (Upon which, the tanks in my guild were called out on being bad; when in fact our initial dps is just too good for the game mechanics).
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytà - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - Fenrîr - Level 55 Gunslinger

Marb's Avatar


Marb
06.05.2013 , 10:04 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Lutese View Post
The whole argument that "DPS can out threat a tank" is hogwash. Any and all who say such things obviously do not have a basic grasp on how threat works, and/or how to apply such information to the game.
I don't think anyone would disagree with you in regards to that if we are talking about a tank who is using a taunt boost. Using raw threat alone (before any taunt starts inflating the threat numbers) are where a lot of these arguments spring from. I think it has been shown that even with an optimized opener, a guarded sentinel can out threat a shadow who doesn't use taunt (using KBN's comparison).

Then we move on to whether or not dps should be taking steps to avoid that (giving the tank a gcd lead, not using relics/adrenals/class buffs on the pull, strategic threat drops). The easier option is for the tank to swallow their pride and use a taunt boost.
Zerkhan - Harbinger

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
06.05.2013 , 10:50 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
...

This method is the method the OP needs to employ. He should employ it for the simple fact that he has to come here to ask for help (Not enough experience in troubleshooting scenarios). Instead of giving him a "this will work 50% or 75% of the time" answer I chose to give him the most reliable one (Upon which, the tanks in my guild were called out on being bad; when in fact our initial dps is just too good for the game mechanics).
Honestly, I think this is the very best point that can be made.

So let's just say that it's true that a perfectly played tank could never lose aggro, even in the beginning of the pull. You'll note that this requires a perfectly played tank.

I'm a good tank. Not a perfect one. Perhaps if I dialed in my understand of my class better, organized my gear better, know the opening bursts of all the classes I raid with, and really worked out exactly how to handle each one, perhaps I could indeed become a tank that nobody could ever pull off of.

But you know, I'm just not that good. HOWEVER, I am good enough to see the Sentinel pull off of me right at the beginning and immediately take it back. I'm good enough to keep aggro throughout the rest of the fight. I'm good enough to position the bosses as needed and to handle instance mechanics. And I'm good enough to tank all the current HM Ops in the game.

Now, if there were a fight where the enrage timer was SO TIGHT that every single dps had to bring 2900+ for the whole duration, opening with the biggest possible burst they could, and if I lost aggro in the first 15 seconds for even a moment it would wipe the group, then I suppose I wouldn't be a good enough tank.

Since there aren't fights like that in this game, it seems a bit heavy handed to give the OP advice that essentially says: "You have to become so perfect as a tank that it's completely impossible to pull off you"

That's not really what he needs to succeed in this game, is it?

JSunrider's Avatar


JSunrider
06.06.2013 , 01:59 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
That's not really what he needs to succeed in this game, is it?
No, it's not. But a spirited argument like this thread brings forward a lot of fruitful information and viewpoints about tanking mechanics. The more they fight, the more our collective knowledge of tanking increases. It doesn't even really matter who is right and who is wrong. Readers benefit, as long as they know what to look for. Yay for internet arguments.

Thanks to all who kept going at it (and may you continue to do so).

Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
06.06.2013 , 03:38 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by JSunrider View Post
No, it's not. But a spirited argument like this thread brings forward a lot of fruitful information and viewpoints about tanking mechanics. The more they fight, the more our collective knowledge of tanking increases. It doesn't even really matter who is right and who is wrong. Readers benefit, as long as they know what to look for. Yay for internet arguments.

Thanks to all who kept going at it (and may you continue to do so).
Are you..................telling...................... .............................us................... .................................................. .........to....................................... .................................................. .....................................TROLL HARDER!
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytà - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - Fenrîr - Level 55 Gunslinger