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pulling agro question in raids


TeH-DeVa's Avatar


TeH-DeVa
05.29.2013 , 10:37 AM | #1
So the guild I am in is not by any streach a serious hard core raiding guild. We do silly stuff. We do stupid stunts. And we do crazy things. However we are a PvE raiding guild regardless.

We have run into a issue because since 2.0 our guild size has tripled and instead of once weekly raids we are doing daily raids...leading to more gear than before and better skill at what we do.

We have easily cleared both 16man and 8man of all story modes of the new ops and want to go to HM but we keep hitting the same problem.

Agro pulling.

No matter what we do our DPS pull agro non-stop - sometimes for example I will fire a TM and a HS right after another and will be 15k+ instantly and I'll pull agro. While sometimes our tanks can taunt it off othertimes its less forgiving. For example we simply can't beat golden fury because the second we pull agro the droid hits each of our DPS twice for 16k each before our tanks can react.

We try guards but it doesn't do anything...we just pull anyways.

It only happened once but somehow I once pulled agro on a HM GF run through the tanks taunt....we were baffled as to how this happened.

So long story short I wanted to know since there are obviously guilds out there with a million times better DPS and tanks than ours...what do you guys do to stop agro pulling?

Thanks for the info and every possible solution possible would be great! Thank you!
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vdbswong's Avatar


vdbswong
05.29.2013 , 10:51 AM | #2
The easier fix is to tell your DPS to hold off for a short while at the start so the Tanks have time to generate aggro. This isn't favourable when you have an enrage timer to consider, but it's a simple implementation. This doesn't necessarily mean don't attack the boss, just don't do anything bursty (i.e. pop relics, insp, high damaging abilities).

If it's still an issue, then maybe you need to have your Tanks look at their rotation and see if they're actually generating enough threat. If they aren't then have them read around on how to generate threat more effectively.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.29.2013 , 10:58 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by TeH-DeVa View Post
SSo long story short I wanted to know since there are obviously guilds out there with a million times better DPS and tanks than ours...what do you guys do to stop agro pulling?
From reading your description, I'm pretty sure one of three things is true: either your tanks are *absolutely* terrible, you're conflating randomly targeted attacks with aggro loss, or your DPS are simply being cleaved by standing in the wrong spot.

If you're not having any problems on *other* content, running with the same people, I'm pretty sure that the first isn't likely to be true: your DPS and tanks are probably in line so that you're managing similar levels of optimal damage/threat so one isn't really outpacing the other. The only way this *might* be possible is if your DPS is opening up *really hard* before your tanks have had an opportunity to generate baseline threat. For that, you either tell your DPS to hold off on going absolutely nuts until 10-15 seconds in or teach your tanks to generate better opening threat vis-a-vis optimized opening rotations.

My guess is that the problem is your confusion between randomly targeted attacks and aggro loss. There are some attacks that are designed specifically that, regardless of the current aggro state (i.e. whether they've got the taunt debuff on 'em or are just targeting you naturally), they'll either swap targets or outright attack someone completely different. They're a natural part of raiding. If the boss is behaving in a manner that absolutely perplexes you from a threat standpoint, it's generally a randomly targeted attack. I know for a fact that Golden Fury has a randomly targeted attack in Satellite Strike.

As to the cleaves, on HM GF, the damage the Fury deals is so high you pretty much have to have the Isotope-5 buff to tank them effectively even as a tank when you're packing more mitigation than any DPS could ever hope to achieve in their lifetimes. If your DPS are standing in the cleave area, they're gonna get *rocked*. Hard. Even a single cleave is gonna make 'em have a bad day.
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CaulderBenson's Avatar


CaulderBenson
05.29.2013 , 11:14 AM | #4
1. Give the tanks a few seconds to hit the enemies/bosses to generate some threat along with their taunt.

2. DPS make sure to use their aggro dump.

3. After that, make sure the tanks are appropriately geared and competent.

And what I mean by the last part, a lot of bosses drop aggro and need to frequently re-taunted after certain phases, leaps, etc.

The adds on SM Golden Fury will destroy DPS if they don't have a tank on them. The tank should immediately be on them taunting them and getting threat.

CaulderBenson's Avatar


CaulderBenson
05.29.2013 , 11:21 AM | #5
1. Give the tanks a few seconds to hit the enemies/bosses to generate some threat along with their taunt.

2. DPS make sure to use their aggro dump.

3. After that, make sure the tanks are appropriately geared and competent.

And what I mean by the last part, a lot of bosses drop aggro and need to frequently re-taunted after certain phases, leaps, etc.

The adds on SM Golden Fury will destroy DPS if they don't have a tank on them. The tank should immediately be on them taunting them and getting threat.

bsbrad's Avatar


bsbrad
05.29.2013 , 11:23 AM | #6
Biggest thing for DPS to remember in HM and NM operations is to use your aggro dump and don't open with your hardest hitting attacks.

Most of the HM Operations mechanics require the DPS to do more than just stand still and hit their rotations, for instance Withering Terror on TFB, each DPS has to take turns on the flowers (actually the tactic we use is the off tank picks up the last flower) but the point stands.

The tanks should be guarding the 2 highest DPSers most of the time, in certain fights the healers need guarding as we pull a lot of threat now post 2.0. Also, tanks for the most part should not open with a taunt, open with their hardest threat generator that is not a taunt, i.e. Wither for sins, Force push for jugs (most bosses cannot be pushed). The tanks should only use their taunts as part of their threat generation rotation or if they are very good only if a bursty DPS (i.e. one who gets several crits on high dmg skills) manage to pull off them.

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Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
05.29.2013 , 11:42 AM | #7
Possible that the tanks are losing aggro to ability delay. You'll see a lot more of that in 16s than 8s or 4s.

One thing I did way back when when I would lose aggro (before several rebalancing patches) is pop a rakata relic of boundless ages on cooldown, while using a tank, at the beginning of fights. Another thing that can be done is to incorporate taunt into your rotation, though I'd be careful about doing this, as it can burn you on aggro dumps or swaps, if the fight has any of those.

Also, you'll want to make sure that the DPS aren't treating the first 10 seconds after pull as a burn phase. If you've got the DPS to finish the fight comfortably, you don't necessarily need to max like a parse to complete the fight. Also all DPS have a threat drop now, so they can start using it if you still have problems, though this idea is problematic for a pyro pt. Good news is nobody in their right mind uses those anymore.

KarethRiker's Avatar


KarethRiker
05.29.2013 , 12:04 PM | #8
Repeating some of the advice here:
1) High opening threat moves from tanks, then blow one taunt on top of that, a few more high threat moves, taunt again
2) To the extent you can, have tanks taunt off each other so after the above rotation second tank comes in and taunts on top of that. Just make sure your taunts will be up for add phase on GF
2) DPS put one full rotation in and then drop aggro (e.g. Leap, Zealous, Precision Slash, 3x Blade Rush, Blade Storm, then drop aggro)
3) If you have guardian dps have them leap to your aggro generators or sage pulls (but this shouldn't be necessary)
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.29.2013 , 01:35 PM | #9
I'm going to distill Kitru's answer, since he was pretty much spot on: either your tanks are terribad or your DPS are attacking the wrong target / standing in the wrong place. The latter is rarely an issue on bosses, so I'm going to set it aside for now. Really, this comes down to bad tanking.

There is no tank class right now that should have any trouble holding agro. Vanguards have the lowest threat of the three, but they aren't too far behind Guardians. Shadows are hilariously OP in terms of threat generation when played correctly, so that certainly shouldn't be an issue (my co-tank still has a 66 hilt and he never loses agro to our DPS, who are rocking full 72s and pushing 3.5k+ openers). So, don't let your tanks tell you that it's not possible to hold agro with their class/gear. :-)

Work with your tanks to optimize their opening rotation. If they're a shadow/assassin, the opener should look like the following:

Pull (Sprint) > Slow Time/Wither > Project/Shock > Force Breach/Discharge (single taunt) > Double Strike/Thrash or Shadow Strike/Maul (2x or until proc) > Project/Shock (AoE taunt if no procs) > (Force Potency/Recklessness) Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning (AoE taunt here if you got the procs early) > Double Strike/Thrash or Shadow Strike/Maul until proc > Project/Shock > Slow Time/Wither (single taunt)

It's essentially impossible for your DPS to pull off your during this cycle, even if they open up with adrenals, relics, cooldowns, lucky crits and no guard. After this cycle, your threat is so obscenely high that you simply need to maintain your rotation to hold agro for the rest of the fight.

Guardians have a similarly high-threat+taunt rotation that they can use (though I'm not as familiar with it, so I'll leave it alone), and Vanguards have enough front-loaded burst due to their energy mechanic that they should be able to generate a sufficient amount of snap threat. Basically, there's no excuse for your tanks to lose agro.

Your DPS should not have to hold back. As a tank, I certainly appreciate the consideration, but telling the DPS to hold back is a crutch used by bad tanks. The DPS are supposed to beat the enrage timer, and the tanks are supposed to manage boss mechanics (including agro) to streamline this process. Asking the DPS to hold back is a failure on the part of the *tank*, not the DPS.
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Hxxr's Avatar


Hxxr
05.29.2013 , 02:03 PM | #10
Apart from an actual taunt ability both single and aoe taunt in this game are both the largest threat builders in the game and should be used even if the tank already has the attention of the boss. Each use sets him to 130% of the currently highest threat value.
At the end of any given encounter taunt woll be the highest threat building ability every time because of this.


ps: Obviously increasing your threat by a certain portion of what you already have is going to do nothing right at the start, but within the first 10 seconds it will be a huge deal.

pps: Guard does in fact help a lot ... 25% threat decrease for it's target is noticable.

ppps: Some classes have very effective threat dumps ... particularly Marauders and Assassins. The others have a rather crappy one that can be very pretty to look at while highly ineffective sadly.
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