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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
05.21.2014 , 10:16 AM | #5011
Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
Wasn't this on like page 12 yesterday?
The thread's nearly a year old. It'll probably keep on going until the dreaded 1000 page mark, then either be closed or remade by the mods.
Darasuum kote ner vode!
Darasuum kote Mando'ade!

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.21.2014 , 11:34 AM | #5012
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
They have not remained silent on the subject. When asked directly they gave a clear answer. I don't feel they need to reiterate their original answer until such a time as they feel their views on the feature have changed.
Not sure who the bigger apologist is anymore, Andryah or you. As to the topic at hand, I've given my opinion, explained my position on the matter, and am getting tired of circling the same old drain at this point.

People are free to quote me, or misquote me, but I have no further desire to perpetuate this thread. So, as of this post, I am no longer concerned with this topic, nor its ardent defenders. Good day.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

BuriDogshin's Avatar


BuriDogshin
05.21.2014 , 12:33 PM | #5013
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
People are free to quote me, or misquote me, but I have no further desire to perpetuate this thread. So, as of this post, I am no longer concerned with this topic, nor its ardent defenders. Good day.
"... and I had to post to tell you all that, rather than just stop posting, because I am JUST THAT IMPORTANT!!"

Now, please excuse me, I need to go find every thread I ever posted to and post to each thread that I am not going to post to that thread again, if that is indeed the case. Because I am important too, dangit. We all are!

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.21.2014 , 01:08 PM | #5014
It seems I have to say it again, since folks just cant seem to grasp the concept that they are not, nor are they ever likely to be the voices of the devs....

You do not likely speak for Bioware or it's employees. Stop making comments on their behalf, like "they have not commented because" and "it will not happen because they hate the idea" if you wish to present any sort of legitimacy when it comes to your opinions. You actually have no basis to make statements such as these.

Do not present your opinions with respect to the boon or folly of the AC system as facts, since they are most likely your opinion and nothing more. That means comments like "end of story", "thats the last word" and " will never happen" are comments that demonstrate a lack of self respect.

There is nothing wrong with presenting the opinion that AC change is a bad idea...I am of that opinion. There is something wrong with presenting the idea that you speak for Bioware or represent the last word on the matter.

Because it is very likely you do and/or are neither.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
05.21.2014 , 01:45 PM | #5015
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post

I think this shows how you've completely failed to understand the two stages of specialisation that SWTOR uses in its class structure.
The prime role of ACs is to segregate certain abilities away from certain specialisations (Roles).
It is probably over concerns about PvP balance with the ability to self heal as a tank. Now I know other MMOs have classes that cover all of the main roles under one roof, but having seen how effective Treek is (Tank that can self heal) compared to my other tanking companions I can't help but wonder how much more effective a player Tank/Heal would be.
The devs have said that they designed the game so that no single character has access to all three roles AT ANY TIME, and not just at the same time.

To this end, they designed the AC's (CLASSES) such that no single AC (CLASS) can tank, heal and DPS. They made the choice of AC (CLASS) PERMANENT. They even went so far as to advise each and every player at least 4 separate times by two different NPC's that your choice of AC (CLASS) was PERMANENT. They even require each and every player to confirm that they understand this by clicking the confirm box in the confirmation window, confirming that they are making the choice they want to make and that they understand it is a PERMANENT choice. .

Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
As I mentioned above there is more ability segregation within the ACs than just those gained from the specialisation you choose.
In effect there are three groups of abilities:
Group 1 Abilities - Class
Group 2 Abilities - Advanced Class
Group 3 Abilities - Specialisation (Role)
Group 1 and Group 2 abilities are essentially the same for everyone that chooses that class and advanced class, they vary only in rank and have a credit cost to advance.
Group 3 Abilities are largely passive modifiers to those abilities from Group 1 and Group 2, with 2-3 active abilities that define the role. They are developed from level 10 with the use of training points that can be refunded when respeccing.
The largest hurdle an AC swap feature has to overcome is the retention of advancement in ranks of the other ACs Group 2 abilities. And, the need to point out before a player makes this choice they will need a reserve of credits (although with the ease of earning creditis through the CM and GTN this is less of an issue than previous).

Allow me to quote you:

Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
Let's not confuse the term Class, Advanced Class, Specialisation and Role any more than we need to
IMO, the three groups would be:

Group 1 STORY
Group 2 CLASS (advanced class)
Group 3 SPEC

This is backed up by the previously quoted statements from the devs, which have never been contradicted and therefore remain the last word from the devs regarding AC's being different classes.




Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
They have not remained silent on the subject. When asked directly they gave a clear answer. I don't feel they need to reiterate their original answer until such a time as they feel their views on the feature have changed.
Has there been ANYTHING from the devs in over a year and a half regarding class changes? NO
Have the devs even uttered a single syllable about class changes since that statement from over a year and a half ago? NO
Has there been even a hint of a whisper about class changes since that statement from over a year and a half ago? NO
Have there been multiple threads about class changes in that time, including this over 500 page thread? YES
Have the devs even once popped into a thread to indicate that class changes are even still on the wall of crazy? NO
Have the devs even made a statement at any of the cantina events that class changes are even still on the wall of crazy? NO

Have the devs addressed other issues that may or may not still be in development in that time? YES
Have the devs been much more forthcoming with information within the past year? YES



There has been no statement from the devs to tell us definitively that class changes are no planned in the foreseeable future, so you are correct when you say that the last word from the devs regarding class changes is the statement from over a year and a half ago.

That statement from over a year and a half ago is more or less valid then the last statements from the devs regarding AC's being different CLASSES.

If you want to find some excuse as to why there has been nothing further from the devs regarding class changes, or that the last word from the d3evs regarding AC's being different classes or any other logical fact that would indicate that class changes likely will not be implemented in the near future, no one can stop you.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.21.2014 , 02:10 PM | #5016
The devs originally stated that housing was not coming to the game and that was that...your starship was your house.

Many threads and suggestions supported the idea of adding it to the game, with many folks arguing against. Again, not a single word from the devs on the issue for more than a year.

Then, out of the blue an announcement that strongholds were coming to the game.

Sometimes...not all the time....but sometimes they do not mention something until they are ready to show something to folks. That could be the case here.

I hope their silence means they decided against it...but I realize that may not be the case.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
05.21.2014 , 02:44 PM | #5017
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
The devs originally stated that housing was not coming to the game and that was that...your starship was your house.

Many threads and suggestions supported the idea of adding it to the game, with many folks arguing against. Again, not a single word from the devs on the issue for more than a year.

Then, out of the blue an announcement that strongholds were coming to the game.

Sometimes...not all the time....but sometimes they do not mention something until they are ready to show something to folks. That could be the case here.

I hope their silence means they decided against it...but I realize that may not be the case.
First, I have repeatedly acknowledged that ANYTHING is subject to change. The fact that something CAN be changed does not meant that it SHOULD be changed, though.

Second, you neglect to mention that the announcement of player housing being implemented came only after after two or three games in development, or close to release, were going to have player housing.

IMO, the decision to implement player housing had much more to do with the fact that new games were approaching release which would have player housing and much less to do with player housing having been under development during the time in which they were silent on that matter. IMO, they were NOT working on player housing during their silence, but rather decided to implement it in response to outside influence(other games including player housing).

IMO, if they really had been working on player housing during their silence (over a year, according to some posters), then they would have said "here is player housing" and NOT "we'll give you player housing in a few months" and then have to push it back even further.

So, using your example of player housing, I guess if there were two or three games in development, or close to release, that would allow you to change your CLASS willy nilly, then we could see a sudden announcement that they will be developing a way to allow class changes.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
05.21.2014 , 03:03 PM | #5018
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
The devs have said that they designed the game so that no single character has access to all three roles AT ANY TIME, and not just at the same time.

To this end, they designed the AC's (CLASSES) such that no single AC (CLASS) can tank, heal and DPS. They made the choice of AC (CLASS) PERMANENT. They even went so far as to advise each and every player at least 4 separate times by two different NPC's that your choice of AC (CLASS) was PERMANENT. They even require each and every player to confirm that they understand this by clicking the confirm box in the confirmation window, confirming that they are making the choice they want to make and that they understand it is a PERMANENT choice. .
Just like your body type was once permanent? Or how about your characters appearance? Oh, what about your characters name? And the server you picked!? What about the species you chose? Or this game being P2P only and space being on-rails only and NO housing?

Permanent like that huh? LOL!

MMOs are always fluid Rat. This isn't 1980 where they ship a game cartridge and that's it.
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LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.21.2014 , 03:08 PM | #5019
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
First, I have repeatedly acknowledged that ANYTHING is subject to change. The fact that something CAN be changed does not meant that it SHOULD be changed, though.

Second, you neglect to mention that the announcement of player housing being implemented came only after after two or three games in development, or close to release, were going to have player housing.

IMO, the decision to implement player housing had much more to do with the fact that new games were approaching release which would have player housing and much less to do with player housing having been under development during the time in which they were silent on that matter. IMO, they were NOT working on player housing during their silence, but rather decided to implement it in response to outside influence(other games including player housing).

IMO, if they really had been working on player housing during their silence (over a year, according to some posters), then they would have said "here is player housing" and NOT "we'll give you player housing in a few months" and then have to push it back even further.

So, using your example of player housing, I guess if there were two or three games in development, or close to release, that would allow you to change your CLASS willy nilly, then we could see a sudden announcement that they will be developing a way to allow class changes.
It's a reasonable point of view. I do think they have been working on the idea long before it was announced by other games though...in fact I think it is likely they started the day one new dev team discussion something like....

"Ok, this is a new day and we are going to do some things differently. The last dev team was the team of "NO", what kind of things did folks want that they said no to, and can we provide those things to players? Lets take another look at that wall of crazy."

I think, unfortunately, that AC change is one of those things, as indicated by the current dev staff most recently. This worries me certainly, and I am not convinced they are not still considering it.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
05.21.2014 , 03:19 PM | #5020
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Just like your body type was once permanent? Or how about your characters appearance? Oh, what about your characters name? And the server you picked!? What about the species you chose? Or this game being P2P only and space being on-rails only and NO housing?

Permanent like that huh? LOL!

MMOs are always fluid Rat. This isn't 1980 where they ship a game cartridge and that's it.
Why am I NOT surprised that once again, in your zeal to attack me personally, you ignore the fact that I have repeatedly acknowledged that anything is subject to change. In fact, one of those acknowledgements which you continue to ignore in your zeal to attack me personally was in the post DIRECTLY above yours.

Am I correct in stating that body type, appearance, name and species are ALL COSMETIC changes and NOT changes in fundamental game play mechanics? I think I am.

Am I correct in stating that a server change does NOT result in a change in fundamental game play mechanics for a character? I think I am.

Am I correct in stating that going from subscription based game to having a F2P option does not change the fundamental game play mechanics for any classes (AC's)? I think I am.

Am I correct in stating that allowing class change WOULD change the fundamental game play mechanics for the character that changes class? I think I am.

There is a difference in the items you listed and allowing class changes, but I am sure you will continue to ignore that difference as it does no mesh with your desire to see class changes implemented. I am also sure that you will continue to ignore those parts of my post that do not mesh with your zeal to attack me personally.