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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.12.2014 , 08:45 PM | #4791
So nice to see the conversation still on track
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
05.12.2014 , 09:04 PM | #4792
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
So nice to see the conversation still on track
Yes Advanced Class Change why not but before please multi-specs would really be helpful.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.12.2014 , 10:50 PM | #4793
When they say they either will not and can not do something, I remember how many times they have said that to only turn around and do exactly what they claimed was impossible or not something they would do.

I'm not going to make a list. Im sure you know they items I mean.

Something telling, however, is how a dev will even give the wrong answer based on opinion WHILE they are working on the very thing he claims can not be done...legacy bank. If I am not mistaken they have clearly indicated it is on its way. They have clearly said in the past that not only was it not possible, it would never happen.

They really have to stop saying never.

ekwalizer's Avatar


ekwalizer
05.13.2014 , 12:12 AM | #4794
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
When they say they either will not and can not do something, I remember how many times they have said that to only turn around and do exactly what they claimed was impossible or not something they would do.

I'm not going to make a list. Im sure you know they items I mean.

Something telling, however, is how a dev will even give the wrong answer based on opinion WHILE they are working on the very thing he claims can not be done...legacy bank. If I am not mistaken they have clearly indicated it is on its way. They have clearly said in the past that not only was it not possible, it would never happen.

They really have to stop saying never.
One example of "we're not going to do that" is Pureblood Sith Inquisitor. To paraphrase, 'we're not going to allow it because the pureblood character will break the slave background story of the inquisitor'.

That was literally the party line up until about 2 months before launch.

So you are correct in the never say never attitude.

I just think there is not a problem here. Leveling a toon doesn't take very long and we all have a spacebar, so it isn't like you have to sit through and endue every cut-scene or dialogue. I have several level 55s with between 52 and 55 hours of /played time.

That ends the part of this post related to the quote.

With all the recent XP events, XP boosts and KDY there really isn't a good case that can be made against just leveling a new toon in the AC that you want.

I guess I just really can't justify asking the Devs to alter the game in order to accommodate a sliver of the population who for whatever reason refuse to correct their own mistakes.

If you don't like your AC, you knew that long before you got to level 40 and should have cut your losses then. The rest of the community should not have to wait for a better feature because Dev time is being dedicated to fixing your mistake. Heck, just in the lifetime of this thread, I have leveled 5 toons to 55 and they were all duplicates of a Story I had already done.

"But I was nerfed into oblivion". Relax, it's an MMO. It happens to everyone in this MMO (except Mara/Sent for some reason).

"I don't have time". You have time to whine about it on the forums though? The "time" argument is patently false int he first place. This is an MMO. It is designed to be a Time-Sink. You are freely engaging in it. You obviously have time.

"But all my stuff!" I get this argument on an emotional level, but on a logical level it doesn't really hold all that much water, in my opinion. Your character isn't as well known for your shinies as you think it is. Also, as someone with 16 level 55s, my main (merc) is my main. Even though I have a mirror on the other faction (and 3 duplicates at 55 of the same faction), I am still drawn to play that character. I also have the other AC for both. I genuinely thought I would enjoy PT more before I had one - but the truth is - the grass isn't always greener.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.13.2014 , 05:16 AM | #4795
Quote: Originally Posted by Deewe View Post
Yes Advanced Class Change why not but before please multi-specs would really be helpful.
I agree. I think dual spec would go a long way to makeing Field Respec a less frequently used item. If they do implement AC swapping, we should absolutely get this first.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.13.2014 , 06:17 AM | #4796
Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
With all the recent XP events, XP boosts and KDY there really isn't a good case that can be made against just leveling a new toon in the AC that you want.
I have no real issue with levelling a new character. After all there are many benefits to having more than one character, such as extra bank space, another character to do dailies on, another character to do OPs with lockouts. Most of the players I know with long term aspirations of SWTOR have set out to get one of each class.
But, if time to level a new character is so insignificant (to you, not to many) I don't see why it should just be used as a punitive barrier (especially if your idea of levelling through story content is to spacebar and do the same FP over and over) to keep players out of the content they want to play or preventing them from continuing a story they are already invested in.

Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
I guess I just really can't justify asking the Devs to alter the game in order to accommodate a sliver of the population who for whatever reason refuse to correct their own mistakes.
There are all sorts of slivers of population within an MMO. Subscribers who are invested enough in a subject to go to the forums are a sliver. I don't think you have access to the metrics that would suggest whether this would ultimately be a valid use of developer time. As to correcting mistakes, it's not the only conceivable use of the AC swap feature. It opens up a greater role selection, while keeping the ability balance intact, this is in fact no different than the current respecialisation.

Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
If you don't like your AC, you knew that long before you got to level 40 and should have cut your losses then. The rest of the community should not have to wait for a better feature because Dev time is being dedicated to fixing your mistake. Heck, just in the lifetime of this thread, I have leveled 5 toons to 55 and they were all duplicates of a Story I had already done.
I don't understand how your particular preference to playing SWTOR is valid to the argument when an AC swap has no impact on you. If you want to go level another 15 characters to 55 it doesn't stop you.
There are players out there who are more time limited. They may have set their goals to a more achievable set of eight characters one of each story. The best way to maximise experience would be to level the mirror advanced classes across the classes.
Lets say, you've already levelled your Bounty Hunter as a Powertech to 55 but on playing through the Republic Trooper as a Commando you find that playstyle is far more to your liking. Now, the player has to abandon the previous character and go back to square one, or just play the Commando. Or, with an AC swap the player could pay a small price to switch the Powertech over to Mercenary.

Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
"But I was nerfed into oblivion". Relax, it's an MMO. It happens to everyone in this MMO (except Mara/Sent for some reason).
And many people abandon characters because of it. It's a shame. I think there are far greater hurdles in PvP than supposed AC balance, which is usually more of a Learn to Play issue, and I don't mean button pressing, I mean understanding that not all builds will be as competitive in PvP as others, they have so many roles to fill. Essentially the mind-set behind making a character build that is balanced for a team based PvE encounter is diametrically opposed to a character build for solo PvP, and yet all builds are magically expected to be balanced.
Should your AC and Specialisation choice (and it is more oftent he Specialisation that is hit rather then the AC) be hit bad enough with the nerf bat that you feel you cannot play it, an AC swap allows you the ability to self moderate while the subject is placed under review. If, after an AC change, the metrics show 95% of the Powertech-Pyro player base is now playing Mercenary-Pyro, the devs know they have a serious issue, either on the perception of spec balance or their actual performance.

Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
"I don't have time". You have time to whine about it on the forums though? The "time" argument is patently false int he first place. This is an MMO. It is designed to be a Time-Sink. You are freely engaging in it. You obviously have time.
It may surprise you but I can't get my gaming rig onto the train, or into the office. Much of my whine time, I'd have preferred 'constructive dialogue' is time spent when I can't play.
The time-sink as a game mechanic for keeping players in game is a dying model. The transition away from subscription only (and a typical mind-set to bloat the game with time-sinks to keep players in game longer, I can remember the restrictions on travel when the game launched) into hybrid means many features focus more on convenience. Offering an easy way of trading time requirements in game for cash is the most obvious convenience feature.

Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
"But all my stuff!" I get this argument on an emotional level, but on a logical level it doesn't really hold all that much water, in my opinion. Your character isn't as well known for your shinies as you think it is. Also, as someone with 16 level 55s, my main (merc) is my main. Even though I have a mirror on the other faction (and 3 duplicates at 55 of the same faction), I am still drawn to play that character. I also have the other AC for both. I genuinely thought I would enjoy PT more before I had one - but the truth is - the grass isn't always greener.
I don't know why you keep battering the thread over the head with how many characters you have and how you've managed to do it while working 50+ hours a week and keeping a wife and two kids happy. I'm glad you find the time. I'm glad you enjoy the story so much that you'll go through it multiple times for the same AC. AC swapping takes none of that away from you. You can still play as often as you want. You can still level up multiple characters of the same AC. AC swap has zero impact on your preferred play-style.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.13.2014 , 06:20 AM | #4797
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
I agree. I think dual spec would go a long way to makeing Field Respec a less frequently used item. If they do implement AC swapping, we should absolutely get this first.
Field Respecialisation is far more functional than dual spec. It gives you as many specs as you want to remember.
If anything I think Field Respecialisation trivialises Specialisation so much I can't help but wonder if you are okay with that why you are so against the idea of an AC swap.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.13.2014 , 06:54 AM | #4798
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
Field Respecialisation is far more functional than dual spec. It gives you as many specs as you want to remember.
If anything I think Field Respecialisation trivialises Specialisation so much I can't help but wonder if you are okay with that why you are so against the idea of an AC swap.
Field Respec still requires stopping, respeccing, setting up bars, and customizing other items. Dual spec maintains the action bars the way they were the last time you were in the spec. Again, to me personally, Advanced Class swapping is just a bypass from having to roll a 2nd character. For example:

Sith Inquisitor:
Sorcerer is usually a healer
Assassin is usually a tank
(from what I personally have witnessed on BC, nothing with solid data, and certainly nothing solidifying the theory game wide)

These are two completely different play styles, much the same way a Druid can be a tank, or a healer, or both. However, with Druids, this is a spec in a talent tree, not an "Advanced class specialization". You want AC to work like specs in WoW, it is just not designed to do so. It is my opinion the Devs discovered this during an Alpha implementation, broke a bunch of stuff, removed it, and never mentioned it again.

It cannot be coincidental that they would announce it was going INTO the game, and then closer to launch becomes a "maybe". Something went wrong. They don't know what, or how, and likely don't think spending the resources to find out is worth it. As it has been pointed out, the team has been reduced from its former size, and resources and funding no longer flow like the waters of Niagra.

If it were possible, and even intended to be slated back into the game, do you honestly think Eric Musco would allow 47 different threads, including this 240 page monster, to go unacknowledged? At some point, people need to be more realistic and more honest with themselves. It's great to support an idea, but this much silence is obviously them waiting for people to finally just shut the flip up about the topic. That's my take on it anyway.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.13.2014 , 07:39 AM | #4799
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Field Respec still requires stopping, respeccing, setting up bars, and customizing other items. Dual spec maintains the action bars the way they were the last time you were in the spec.

Again, to me personally, Advanced Class swapping is just a bypass from having to roll a 2nd character. For example:

Sith Inquisitor:
Sorcerer is usually a healer most likely to be DPS while levelling
Assassin is usually a tank most likely to be DPS while levelling
(from what I personally have witnessed on BC, nothing with solid data, and certainly nothing solidifying the theory game wide)
So, remembering at most 3 abilities from a spec and assigning them to the bars and maybe changing gear is TOO much effort. While people that want an AC swap are just being lazy for not levelling a second character. Okay

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
These are two completely different play styles, much the same way a Druid can be a tank, or a healer, or both. However, with Druids, this is a spec in a talent tree, not an "Advanced class specialization". You want AC to work like specs in WoW, it is just not designed to do so. It is my opinion the Devs discovered this during an Alpha implementation, broke a bunch of stuff, removed it, and never mentioned it again.
But, respecialisation allows for the change of role within the Advanced Class. Sorcerer has two DPS specs and a Heal spec, Assassin has two DPS specs and a Tank spec.
Within the Advanced Classes there already exists a massive difference in play-style, your end specialisation determines how you play far more than your AC choice does.

Sorcerer (Heal) plays far different to Sorcerer (DPS)
Assassin (Tank) plays far different to Assassin (DPS)

The comparison with WoW is slightly at odds as SWTOR uses a two stage specialisation, at 1st level you choose a class, around 10th level you choose your sub-class and anytime after 10th you start placing training points in any of the three specialisations of that sub-class (one of those specialisations is even shared, although there may be very minor alterations.)
I doubt there is anything major behind the scenes that would be broken. I could see a small argument to be made that Beta testers found it too confusing when switching between an AC to go to a Class trainer and purchase any unlevelled abilities for the new AC, or to go up into the abilities panel and drag down the AC abilities to the quickbar slots. This is an argument against acquiring a little bit of knowledge, not an unreasonable assumption to ask a player about to embark on an AC swap to understand what they are about to do.


Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
It cannot be coincidental that they would announce it was going INTO the game, and then closer to launch becomes a "maybe". Something went wrong. They don't know what, or how, and likely don't think spending the resources to find out is worth it. As it has been pointed out, the team has been reduced from its former size, and resources and funding no longer flow like the waters of Niagra.
If we are into the realms of pure speculation, as I guess we are as neither of us were there to know what the decision making process was, I would speculate that it is far more likely that around launch time, with the devs wanting to push back the launch date EA came in heavy handed and quashed several ideas that took SWTOR away from the expected WoW template (you know when talking about large sums of money, investors tend to be far more conservative in their desires than the people that didn't put the money up front).
Around this time there are many features that were intended for inclusion such as all inventory items being modable, companion abilities/role determined by customisation packs that would have been great for SWTOR but were cut.
I believe the term at the time was 'EA Deathstar'.
Or, I could speculate, that inter-departmental wrangling between features became an issue with core desired features championed by high level members of the writing staff (permanency of choice, killing off companions, single play-through of heroics) were being cut or changed that they made sure 'permanency' entered the game at a system design level it was never intended to be.
But, speculation and focusing on the past of the game is a waste of time when discussing features you may want in the game, you have to focus on the merits at hand.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
If it were possible, and even intended to be slated back into the game, do you honestly think Eric Musco would allow 47 different threads, including this 240 page monster, to go unacknowledged? At some point, people need to be more realistic and more honest with themselves. It's great to support an idea, but this much silence is obviously them waiting for people to finally just shut the flip up about the topic. That's my take on it anyway.
Didn't we just go off on a tangent on just this issue?
Bioware didn't feel the need to put any gold font on any of the threads asking for a legacy bank system, despite it being a feature requested for from launch. In fact when asked Bioware's stance had always been 'there's a viable work around'. Then, without any direct fan fare on a legacy bank feature they slipped it in as a line on the Galactic Stronghold release.
Bioware silence means nothing on any subject. In fact it does, it just means they are maintaining their 'no comment on an answer we have already given.' policy.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.13.2014 , 07:51 AM | #4800
At this point we are circling the same thing over and over. I talk about the differences and you dismiss it saying it is alike. I talk about the similarities, and you discuss the differences. I state a FACT that no one has commented on this, and you postulate that silence could still mean a yes.

I think we've both said what we have to say. If it ever happens, I will come back in here for a healthy round of "we told you so" and I will eat crow. When it never happens, people can look back and say, "Holy crap. Superman was right."

I wish you luck... for the last time... on this crusade for a feature neither of us will ever use.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy