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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.10.2014 , 04:33 AM | #4751
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Thank you. I wanted to be taken seriously, and I have LordArtemis to thank for the suggestion. Also, I love doing research.
It's nice that you feel so invested in the subject to take the time to go gather so many quotes, a couple of which were duplications and most of which were before the game was released.

I feel the course of this thread is just focusing on the merits of when a quote was said (it's fine but doesn't really explore the actual impact an AC swap would have.) and that a lot of stuff said by developers and community managers at around the time of launch somehow carries the same weight as the most recent (and I know 18 months isn't exactly recent) quote by the Lead system Designer.

The core impact you seem to have focused on when you were giving your own personal feelings about why it shouldn't be allowed was it would minimise play time.
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Now you are getting it. Even a YES, can sometimes still mean NO. So, until Eric rolls in here, and gives everyone the "Soon" speech, I would labor under the concept that AC Class changes will never happen. If they gave us AC change, we would simply play one character, instead of two. We would buy one set of unlocks, instead of two. We would complete our play time in half the time.

For those not following the bouncing ball TIME = MONEY. Less time, less money. Less characters, less money. Not sure why people would assume a for-profit company would incorporate a plan to reduce playtime and hope to make money somehow.
And yet you don't have an issue with the consideration of allowing a 'Buy a level 55' character.
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post

Who's to say what is fun for one is fun for all? Maybe some people want to level the regular way, slow and steady with no perks or bonus XP. Maybe the guy next to him wants to just add water and have a 55. When it comes to choices for playstyle and overall game enjoyment, neither side is right nor wrong. It is ALL subjective. All I am doing is suggesting the ability to move as fast OR as slow as you choose. Giving someone a choice is not a bad thing. Limiting or removing choices however is pretty sad.
Excuse me if I find those double standards a little hypocritical. Although there is a small chance you've had a complete U-turn on thinking players should be given more choices as long as it doesn't impact on others in the last six months.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.10.2014 , 06:53 AM | #4752
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
It's nice that you feel so invested in the subject to take the time to go gather so many quotes, a couple of which were duplications and most of which were before the game was released.

I feel the course of this thread is just focusing on the merits of when a quote was said (it's fine but doesn't really explore the actual impact an AC swap would have.) and that a lot of stuff said by developers and community managers at around the time of launch somehow carries the same weight as the most recent (and I know 18 months isn't exactly recent) quote by the Lead system Designer.

The core impact you seem to have focused on when you were giving your own personal feelings about why it shouldn't be allowed was it would minimise play time.

And yet you don't have an issue with the consideration of allowing a 'Buy a level 55' character.

Excuse me if I find those double standards a little hypocritical. Although there is a small chance you've had a complete U-turn on thinking players should be given more choices as long as it doesn't impact on others in the last six months.
So, instead of sticking to the topic at hand, you instead tell me that 24 month old quotes are not as valid as 18 month old quotes, and then go completely off topic by bringing up a year old post on a completely different topic? If you would like to discuss the merit, or lack there of with a lvl 55 boost, there is another active discussion on the front page regarding such a topic and I would be happy to discuss it in that thread, rather than derail this one.

I know you have your heels dug in on this, and I can appreciate that. I was the same way with Treek and having her added to the CM. Again, another topic for a different thread, but I wanted to say I admire your endurance on such an outdated and deceased BW topic. Even though it is still alive and kicking for a handful of current players.

If BW even thought for a MOMENT this would be a feature, they would dig up the old code for the original implementation and add it to the game. See my link from July stating in a Q&A how it was "IN game and would be cheap for the 1st one and not so cheap for additional ones". It was supposed to be added. Even the man you quoted said "eventually" since he knew 18 months before THAT it was slated to go in.

Yet everytime they are asked following the aborted implementation, they give the same answers. "Soon, Likely, Eventually". In 47 threads, 3 years, hundreds of interviews, and almost as many Q&A sessions, the topic only appears less than 10 times, and it casually brushed under the rug. If they had ANY intention of actually following through with it, it either A) would have come at launch as it was slated in July 2011, or B) Eric or someone else with gold font would have responded with SOMETHING in one of these 47 threads.

I know you want this. I can tell the way you are fighting for it. But, you asked for facts, and facts I've provided. Also, to wrap things up in much the same way you did:

You've built your entire case on OUTDATED information, and then casually dismiss my post for having OUTDATED information while simultaneously changing the subject to a topic about which some people HATE in order to sway other readers into hating me as well, therefore also dismissing my well thought out and structured comment. So forgive me if I no longer find your argument as credible as I find it hypocritical. While more choices are always a great idea, not all ideas should be choices. Like the boost. WoW proved it is a bad idea.

*If you want to discuss the other topic, there is one on the front page. I will not derail this thread.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.10.2014 , 07:01 AM | #4753
Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
What you aren't taking into account from the DS quote is:
a.) it was 18 months ago - a lot can happen in 18 months. 18 month, while "more recently" is not relevant.
b.) the very next sentence of the quote pertained to species change. Species change was added to the game within a few months of that quote. Species change wasn't even part of the question asked.
c.) the quote from DS was given in an interview about the game becoming F2P.

I understand your point on the Devs remaining silent on this feature, I just don't see that as the truth. These devs are a lot more forthcoming with information than most games. We knew about Makeb months in advance, we knew about GSF months in advance, we know about Strongholds months in advance.

As I said before, there have been 2 Digital Expansions since that quote was made. Species change is a reality but AC respec is not. That should be your first indicator that it probably will not become a reality. If it could be done, they have had time to do it and it would be here by now.

And let's be honest, we don't know whether or not DS said something he shouldn't have said in the first place - which explains why it is never repeated in any interview, road map, pod cast, live cast, blog since.

Quite simply put, there is not a single shred of evidence that this item is even still on the Wall of Crazy. If it is, then it is obviously lower priority than reskinning what was ugly armor sets in the first place (ie putting lipstick on a pig).

I'm not completely against AC Respec. If it became a reality, I would in fact use it on my Mara and Sentinel. What I am diametrically opposed to, however, is any path to multiple AC respec. Which is to say you should only be allowed to change once per character. Ultimately, I just don't see this as an issue that warrants the amount of dev time it would take to do it properly.
Very good read, and I would have to agree on a majority of these points. Particularly the devs and their willingness to be transparent about things currently on the wall of crazy. If this topic were even on their RADAR, Eric M would have stepped in 100 pages ago and announced something like, "Yes, this is still a feature we might want to implement at sometime in the foreseeable future. For now, we are focused more on (insert random money making CM idea here). Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming!"

*The previous quote was made by me as an example and not Eric M. I am not Eric M, nor am I posing as him to mislead this thread. This message has been brought to you by People Against Confusion*

The point is, as transparent as the devs are, if this were a topic of interest... we'd know about it. Their SILENCE for the past 18 months, speaks volumes.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.12.2014 , 05:20 AM | #4754
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
So, instead of sticking to the topic at hand, you instead tell me that 24 month old quotes are not as valid as 18 month old quotes, and then go completely off topic by bringing up a year old post on a completely different topic? If you would like to discuss the merit, or lack there of with a lvl 55 boost, there is another active discussion on the front page regarding such a topic and I would be happy to discuss it in that thread, rather than derail this one.
I thought the topic at hand at that specific time was the timeframe of the quotes. And I'm sorry, but no I don't think quotes made during the original development cycle by people who no longer work on SWTOR are as relevant as ones made by the current Lead Systems Designer about features that may be implemented under the current hybrid subscription model.
As to the other quote, it was less about the actual level 55 boost and more about your willingness to embrace a feature that is purchasable from the cartel market that caters to convenience in allowing a player to bypass content.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
I know you have your heels dug in on this, and I can appreciate that. I was the same way with Treek and having her added to the CM. Again, another topic for a different thread, but I wanted to say I admire your endurance on such an outdated and deceased BW topic. Even though it is still alive and kicking for a handful of current players.
My heels are no more dug in on this topic than yours. The only difference is while I'm open to discussing the pros and cons of an AC swap feature, you feel the need to moderate the thread and shut it down to all future discussion. I'm not sure AC swapping will ever be outdated as more and more MMOs move away from cookie cutter class systems and start to offer more player customisation options into character ability build. That relevance seems to see a reasonable turnover of suggestions made and the resurrection of this thread over its lifespan.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
If BW even thought for a MOMENT this would be a feature, they would dig up the old code for the original implementation and add it to the game. See my link from July stating in a Q&A how it was "IN game and would be cheap for the 1st one and not so cheap for additional ones". It was supposed to be added. Even the man you quoted said "eventually" since he knew 18 months before THAT it was slated to go in.
I'm not so sure it's as easy to implement old code as you think it is. SWTOR has undergone constant patching and several expansions. You only have to look at the sort of bugs that rear their heads after every patch to know that systems have weird and wonderful interconnections. Not to mention that original code may have been far from a complete and stable iteration (if it even made it past a rough code draft from the design document). This means that any current implementation would still need developer resources spent to get it polished enough to work. I don't know if you noticed but Bioware Austin aren't running with the same scale of teams as they were prelaunch. Resources will be focused on creating the content that is on their current game plan and making sure it is released on schedule.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Yet everytime they are asked following the aborted implementation, they give the same answers. "Soon, Likely, Eventually". In 47 threads, 3 years, hundreds of interviews, and almost as many Q&A sessions, the topic only appears less than 10 times, and it casually brushed under the rug. If they had ANY intention of actually following through with it, it either A) would have come at launch as it was slated in July 2011, or B) Eric or someone else with gold font would have responded with SOMETHING in one of these 47 threads.
I think their intention would be to release it when they decide to and only update their last comment on the matter should it change.
Asking for devs to comment directly in a thread tends to have the opposite effect as it sets a dangerous precedent.
I think, that since a developer or other gold font has commented directly on the issue, there is no reason to consider their view to be different than their last statement on the matter.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
I know you want this. I can tell the way you are fighting for it. But, you asked for facts, and facts I've provided. Also, to wrap things up in much the same way you did:
I'm not really bothered about AC swapping at this point. I have 12 level 55s, and hope to have the last 4 ACs maxed out before the next level cap hits us. If AC swap was ever implemented I doubt it would be in such a way I would use it. However, I am arguing on being allowed to discuss the merits of any feature, whether or not a dev has quouted on it in the past or more recently, without the heavy handed censorship of other forumites coming into the thread saying 'No comment by devs yet, never going to happen, shut up.' to paraphrase.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
You've built your entire case on OUTDATED information, and then casually dismiss my post for having OUTDATED information while simultaneously changing the subject to a topic about which some people HATE in order to sway other readers into hating me as well, therefore also dismissing my well thought out and structured comment. So forgive me if I no longer find your argument as credible as I find it hypocritical. While more choices are always a great idea, not all ideas should be choices. Like the boost. WoW proved it is a bad idea.
The case on quotes made by devs I've built on the last thing said on AC swapping by a dev still working on the game. Everything before that is outdated, and the stuff from pre-launch just shows how in flux the decision was.
There was no intention to sway the opinions of any other forumites, I think they have their own minds and are quite capable of coming to their own conclusions. The irony is I wouldn't of even been aware of your opinion on wanting more shortcut features in the game if you hadn't started that thread (at the time it was only a couple of slots above this thread).

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
*If you want to discuss the other topic, there is one on the front page. I will not derail this thread.
I wasn't trying to derail this thread by discussing the merits of a level 55 character boost. Merely point out that your previous desires to see that implemented seemed to be directly opposed to the same desires of allowing an AC swap. I know opinions can change over time.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.12.2014 , 05:42 AM | #4755
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
I'm sorry, but no I don't think quotes made during the original development cycle by people who no longer work on SWTOR are as relevant as ones made by the current Lead Systems Designer

you feel the need to moderate the thread and shut it down to all future discussion

This means that any current implementation would still need developer resources spent to get it polished enough to work. I don't know if you noticed but Bioware Austin aren't running with the same scale of teams as they were prelaunch. Resources will be focused on creating the content that is on their current game plan and making sure it is released on schedule.

I think, that since a developer or other gold font has commented directly on the issue, there is no reason to consider their view to be different than their last statement on the matter.

If AC swap was ever implemented I doubt it would be in such a way I would use it.

The case on quotes made by devs I've built on the last thing said on AC swapping by a dev still working on the game. Everything before that is outdated

I wasn't trying to derail this thread by discussing the merits of a level 55 character boost. Merely point out that your previous desires to see that implemented seemed to be directly opposed to the same desires of allowing an AC swap. I know opinions can change over time.
1. All of the quotes are outdated. The last comment on this being implemented was a MAYBE, and that was 18 months ago. Until there is some sort of confirmation saying it is still a MAYBE, some 18 months later, there is no way of even knowing if this is still on their radar, or if they even care at this point.

2. Your perception of my opinion seems to be that of moderation. Simply because it concludes with a firm standpoint. At no time, in this thread, have I presumed to do so by saying end thread or /thread. I just like wrapping up my statements with a closing argument.

3. Correct, the code would have to be re-worked, or at least mildly tweaked, which means wasting resources on a feature being clamored for by a guy who doubts he would even use it.

4. There's been no gold font comments on this issue. There has been one comment, in 18 months, on another site, during a Q&A. Since then, 47 threads have come and 46 have gone asking for this, and not one spec of gold font to be found.

5. I'm glad you are championing a cause for others who are silent enough to no longer even comment on the subject. Very noble of you.

6. In fact, EVERYTHING is outdated, is it not? The code from 18 months ago no longer exists. The pre-F2P model code no longer exists. Most of the BW team no longer exists. It would seem the only two people who actually care about this are you and the OP.

7. Opinions do change. I no longer view the boost as a good idea, just as I think this would be a waste of resources.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

CyberneticDucks's Avatar


CyberneticDucks
05.12.2014 , 06:09 AM | #4756
wow, people are flipping out, like usual on the forum. i don't see any problem with being able to switch ACs. especially when you get your PT up to chapter 3 and you find out it sucks. why should i have to do the whole storyline over again, when i can give bioware MONEY, they LOVE that!!! its not a big deal everyone, every individual has their own things they like to do, if you dont want to do that, dont do it. if you could switch ACs how would it POSSIBLY affect you? eventually people figure out how to tank, dps, and heal, each AC just does those three basic roles in their own flavor. i'd love a 5000 cc switch-a-roo!
people on the internet are only mean because they can get away with it

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.12.2014 , 06:11 AM | #4757
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
1. All of the quotes are outdated. The last comment on this being implemented was a MAYBE, and that was 18 months ago. Until there is some sort of confirmation saying it is still a MAYBE, some 18 months later, there is no way of even knowing if this is still on their radar, or if they even care at this point.
I'm not sure you understand the meaning of 'outdated', as in out of date, obsolete.
Certainly all of the quotes are old, I'll not deny that.
But, everything before the last relevant quote is outdated, that last quote is simply old.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
2. Your perception of my opinion seems to be that of moderation. Simply because it concludes with a firm standpoint. At no time, in this thread, have I presumed to do so by saying end thread or /thread. I just like wrapping up my statements with a closing argument.
I'd say insulting to the point of encouraging a retort. They certainly aren't phrased in an open style encouraging discussion in an open manner.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
3. Correct, the code would have to be re-worked, or at least mildly tweaked, which means wasting resources on a feature being clamored for by a guy who doubts he would even use it.
There have been quite a few people who have asked for the feature to be considered. It is difficult to know for example the number of people who may make use of a feature unless you have decent metrics on the sort of levelling activities and endgame division of play a player indulges in.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
4. There's been no gold font comments on this issue. There has been one comment, in 18 months, on another site, during a Q&A. Since then, 47 threads have come and 46 have gone asking for this, and not one spec of gold font to be found.
There's been no gold font comments on many topics that are still being discussed on the forums. Mainly because if they set that precedent of calling for a dev quote gets a gold font answer they'd never get any work done, they'd spend all day answering threads in the forums.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
5. I'm glad you are championing a cause for others who are silent enough to no longer even comment on the subject. Very noble of you.
I've always tried to advocate the potential merits. I'd point out that a very small percentage of people playing a game go to the forums (more often than not when they have a problem or complaint) and the larger player base of SWTOR seem to be non-subscribers (not able to post to forums) now.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
6. In fact, EVERYTHING is outdated, is it not? The code from 18 months ago no longer exists. The pre-F2P model code no longer exists. Most of the BW team no longer exists. It would seem the only two people who actually care about this are you and the OP.
The code from 18 months ago has been altered, the extent will vary across different aspects. The biggest change will no doubt be under the hood optimisation changes.
Actually, you seem to care about this issue far more, or at least as much as I do.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
7. Opinions do change. I no longer view the boost as a good idea, just as I think this would be a waste of resources.
And, maybe in six months time you'll consider this to be a good idea

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.12.2014 , 06:51 AM | #4758
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
I'm not sure you understand the meaning of 'outdated', as in out of date, obsolete.
Certainly all of the quotes are old, I'll not deny that.
But, everything before the last relevant quote is outdated, that last quote is simply old.

I'd say insulting to the point of encouraging a retort. They certainly aren't phrased in an open style encouraging discussion in an open manner.

There have been quite a few people who have asked for the feature to be considered. It is difficult to know for example the number of people who may make use of a feature unless you have decent metrics on the sort of levelling activities and endgame division of play a player indulges in.

There's been no gold font comments on many topics that are still being discussed on the forums. Mainly because if they set that precedent of calling for a dev quote gets a gold font answer they'd never get any work done, they'd spend all day answering threads in the forums.

I've always tried to advocate the potential merits. I'd point out that a very small percentage of people playing a game go to the forums (more often than not when they have a problem or complaint) and the larger player base of SWTOR seem to be non-subscribers (not able to post to forums) now.

The code from 18 months ago has been altered, the extent will vary across different aspects. The biggest change will no doubt be under the hood optimisation changes.
Actually, you seem to care about this issue far more, or at least as much as I do.

And, maybe in six months time you'll consider this to be a good idea
Advanced class swapping is little more than laziness, and is hardly a good idea. Changing specs is one thing, changing the AC is like going from Priest to Mage. That being said, if BW ever does acknowledge that this is even a consideration, I am hopeful they do the same thing they did with Treek. 2100CC or a bunch of creds with a Legacy Requirement. Such a change should not be taken lightly, and it should have a 30 day cooldown on it.

Since neither of us would ever use this feature, and we are the only two talking about it, it becomes a moot point. So, rather than continue to beat an already dead horse that no longer even smells good enough for the flies, I will be dropping the subject as to allow this thread to finally be buried where it belongs. On page 91 with the other 47 threads. Goodbye.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Savej's Avatar


Savej
05.12.2014 , 08:21 AM | #4759
Except "priests and mages" have completely different abilities, different stats, different items/gear, different lore/stories, different race choices, different trainers, etc.. Even warlocks are a completely different class than mage and they are more similar. In this game i can switch between sentinel and guardian using almost exactly the same gear and without changing over half of my high 20s keybinds. The lore/trainers/stories/pets/dialogs are all the same and, if I pick similar specs, the way they perform is very similar (some acs/specs-within-an-ac aren't, tho). Even their animations are mostly the same. I have numerous knights and warriors but for events and operations and ranked pvp I like to play one guy and have his name mean something (and it does to me) - the rest of my alts are basically throwaways - it would be nice to be able to respec him occasionally.

Just so I'm clear: there are many differences between the various sentinel and guardian specs, as there are between a shadow priest and a holy priest, or a fire mage and an ice mage, or a tree druid and a feral one, or an arms warrior vs a fury warrior vs a prot one... I could spend all day talking about how different a fury warrior plays compared to an arms one and that is one of the more similar respecs you can do in Wow. In fact, choosing a spec in wows first days was a "final" decision. Making it "un-final" didn't warp the fabric of the game or class mechanics and it didn't reduce the number of players or characters(both of which were going up long after the option was added).

i don't believe that AC swapping represents a major dev commitment, especially not compared to the amount of money a switch would return in the cm (assuming it isn't unattainably overpriced) - just like respecs now, it's something most people will probably do at least once.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.12.2014 , 08:49 AM | #4760
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Advanced class swapping is little more than laziness, and is hardly a good idea. Changing specs is one thing, changing the AC is like going from Priest to Mage.
Advanced Class swapping is a Quality of Life addition that aids convenience within the spectrum of features offered by a free-to-play set up.
I've never seen this adherence to how other games do things being the best argument for how SWTOR should do things. SWTOR is its own game and has a two stage specialisation system, while I would argue against allowing a Class swap, I don't see an issue with allowing either of the two stages of specialisation to be swapped.
If I wanted to labour on the similarity of classes I certainly wouldn't use WoW as my star witness as it has Paladins, Druids and Monks that can switch between all of the core MMO roles. I could just as easily say a Powertech Tank swapping to a Mercenary Ranged DPS is no different ithan a Druid going from Bear-form (tank) to Boomkin (ranged DPS).

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
That being said, if BW ever does acknowledge that this is even a consideration, I am hopeful they do the same thing they did with Treek. 2100CC or a bunch of creds with a Legacy Requirement. Such a change should not be taken lightly, and it should have a 30 day cooldown on it.
I've never argued that it should be free. I don't understand the need to attach such a punitive cooldown on it though. Even the 7 day cooldown I suggested on one of the options seems redundant as an individual character would be locked out of endgame content based on their name rather than the spec they happened to be in.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Since neither of us would ever use this feature, and we are the only two talking about it, it becomes a moot point. So, rather than continue to beat an already dead horse that no longer even smells good enough for the flies, I will be dropping the subject as to allow this thread to finally be buried where it belongs. On page 91 with the other 47 threads. Goodbye.
It depends how AC swap was ever implemented as to whether I would use it or not, as previously stated, if it was tied to legacy and required a max level character in the AC you wished to switch to, to unlock it with a reasonable one shot price and then freedom to switch as you desired. I'd probably get that for a few characters.

However, if it was a one shot consumable from the Cartel Market, I wouldn't use it. But, could see this item would appeal to a greater potential player base.

In an ideal world I'd like them to implement both ways.